What to do when your adult friends have mean kids?

[Earlybird]

In the past, dd and I have spent time with two of my friends and their children. I want to keep in touch with these two friends, but getting together inevitably involves our children now that we're mums.

Here's the problem: dd resists meeting up with these kids - even more now that she's older/more verbal (5.6). There are problems at home for the little boy (mum and dad argue constantly, moved a year ago to new home/school, new little sister born 18 months ago), so I have tried to be understanding. But he is rude and attention seeking (making any conversation between me and my friend impossible), and constantly physically aggressive with dd (hitting, shoving, pushing etc). My friend reprimands him, but in an ineffective/half-hearted way. He is 6.6, btw.

My other friend has a dd who is fantastically bossy. DD will go along to a point, but eventually wants to have some input into the games played. When that happens, this other child inevitably resorts to personal insults/threats as a way of bullying dd into compliance. This child is also becoming interestingly manipulative, and her latest tactic is to insult dd, run to me/climb on my lap for a cuddle and watch dd for reaction when she is failing to get dd to "conform" to the chosen activity of the moment. DD often ends up in tears.

Part of me thinks these are incidents that dd needs to learn to navigate, especially as she is an only. Obviously siblings sometimes argue/hit/insult etc, so those children learn how to manage those sorts of exchanges. But, part of me understands dd's reluctance to spend time around these children. And, it is also an important life lesson to what interpersonal exchanges are acceptable, and what friendship means.

Any thoughts? What do you do when your friends have difficult children?

me too, i would like to hear some ideas/advices about this issue

Well, what I have always done with mean kids, is told them in no uncertain terms that I am watching them and I know what their strategy is and it won't work. I tell them this as it happens in a matter of fact way with or without the parent present, and I don't make a big thing of it and just move on.
Works every time

Once these kids know that the parent of the child they are using as their foil is on the ball then they change tack pretty quickly.

I usually say it in a Michael Caine voice with an index finger tapping at my nose for emphasis.

I certainly wouldn't let the bossy one climb into my lap right after being mean to my kids.

I think I would be direct with the kids when they do horrid things in my earshot. And I would be honest with my friends, saying, "my child isn't really enjoying spending time with yours, can we meet up without kids"?

It's difficult when people have different parenting methods, and these cause rifts.

nip their kids hard when parent isn't looking.

Or meet up for a meal or something wihtout the kids

oops forgot the !

i was only kidding

Yes I agree about encouraging your kids to vocalise their dissent and also telling them not to let the other child be mean.

My best friend's daughter is "tricky". Best friend knows this well. I caught daughter pretending to whisper in ds1's ear and actually screaming in it. They are 6 and 5 Ds1 let her do this 3 times before I intervened with a "don't do that X, you know very well it is a mean thing to do, and ds1 don't let her do it, if she ever asks to whisper in her ear say "no".

End of story.

Some good advice here. Part of the problem with the other little girl is that the "offensive" behaviour usually happens when the two kids are in a different part of the house or out in the garden. Consequently, I am not in earshot of what has transpired. I only know something has happened afterwards - often when dd comes into the kitchen and doesn't want to go back to the playroom, or even when we're on the way home. When the initial climbing-on-my-lap incident happened, I didn't suspect anything...until I saw a despondent dd across the playground and found out she was upset after being insulted when she refused to play along with the other child's demands.

I've tried explaining to dd that they must take turns and each should have the chance to choose the game. This other child seems to have little ability/interest in ever going along with dd's suggestions - so dd rarely gets "her turn" to choose. If the bullying/insults don't work, this other child then sulks/pouts. Also this child is desperate to control most everything - even down to prefering a certain swing in the playground and being unhappy if dd is using it....even though there are other swings available.

Whenever I have tactfully "tiptoed" around the issue of her dd's behaviour with my friend, I get a dismissive wave of "oh she's really tired". But, it's gradually dawning on me that it's more than just a bad day, as the behaviour now happens most everytime.

I've considered this further. This friend and I were introduced, and immediately "clicked" because, on the face of it, we have some critical things in common .... single mums with daughters roughly the same age, who live in the same area. We've taken to spending time together on the weekends, which I think is tricky time for lone parents. We didn't have a friendship prior to children, and now that her dd is proving to be so mean and difficult, I must consider whether or not it's a friendship I want to continue.

I stopped seeing a woman in my postnatal group. Her child aged 1 was constantly hitting, pushing and screaming at my baby. She never disciplined him at all. My baby ended up terrified. I decided that his behaviour would only get worse in the future without her intervening.

I hate it when parents see their child behaving badly and do nothing. Especially when my child is on the receiving end. I will not tolerate bad behaviour in my child.

I accept bad behaviour will happen in most children, but I don't think it's acceptable that this is permitted by the parents. I also accept my child will have to learn to defend himself when he's older, but at age 1 I will protect him from violent children.

I find it very hard to tell a child off when their parent is in the room also and ignores/excuses/deals with them badly. It frustrates me beyond belief but I just can’t bring myself to tell them in no uncertain terms. I find it easier to let the friendship go rather than confront them about it.
Not a solution but my wimpy way of dealing with this sort of thing.

I agree with what all of you say. I wish I had the steely nerves to lay out the groundrules of acceptable behaviour upfront, or to reprimand a child that isn't my own if they're out of line and the parent isn't doing it. For the most part, I am caught off guard and then feel upset for dd, upset I didn't handle things better in the moment, and unhappy that another child has created such an unpleasant situation.

Additionally, these other mums are almost always present - so if they don't react to what their child is saying/doing, can I really? And now that I see that the unpleasant behaviour of these two children is the norm instead of a phase or a bad day, I am inclined to cool the friendships.

exactly how I feel earlybird. I would be really upset if anyone told my children off right in front of me and cannot bring myself to do it to others. Issue is that I always pick my children up if they are rude/out of line in any way and make them stop and apologise. Shame others can’t do the same with theirs some fo the time. Biggest shame is for their kids who are learning such unpleasant social behavioural patterns :(

I'm having this problem at the moment and tbh have decided to see my friend without her kids as her eldest is a complete brat. It really annoys me when people let there kids bully smaller ones in my case, her kid is 3, mine is 1!!! she ineffectually tells her to behave and the kid completely ignores her. i've spoken to her a few times but now think why should my ds have to put up with the fact my friend can't be arsed to control her kid.

i have no qualms with telling a child off - for the most part

when they are on my turf - or nutral ground - i just say what i have to.

its difficult however when you are on their turf - in their house.

the obnoxious spoiled brat aged around 10 at the time - of a friend of mine - constantly interrupted - and the mother would brak conversation to speak with child, so we could carry on talking - which i though was down right rude. so i said " excuse me, dont be rude. we are talking. we will come to you in a minute." she shut up. and i did go back to her at the natural breaks that conversations have.

this very weekend i was at another mums house - my son had stayed the night. the bedroom was untidy and mum had rang me to say that she thought it only right my son should help tidy it up ( he wasn't the only kid there - the mother had gone out and the boy had invited al his friends in) i went round to sort it out. i went upstairs whilst ds is protesting he didn't do it i said " your the better person. get it done and we will go." the boy was sat on his sofa bed playing on the playstation whilst my son put the videos away. i let this go. then his mother asked him something and he said " my fucking friends did it"

at which point i said " if you want to use that kind of language to your mother then please do it when i have gone"

kids in the street sitting in and ruining next door neighbours hedge. " don't do that or i will phone the police"

friend of my sons walking on the street at gone 10pm " why are you still out? its school tomorrow, go home right now"

a 10 year old beat up my 13 year old - i told him if he did it again i would call the police as 10 is the age where they can be arrested. he did it again - i called police.

dont fuck about me y' know

custardo - you have what I don't...a blunt/straightforward approach, and nerves of steel.

As I said in a previous post, I am not so good at reacting in the moment to new/unfamiliar/unpleasant situations. I often am so gobsmacked by outrageous behaviour, that I go silent. However, it has dawned on me that I am very quick to reprimand children I don't know for naughty behviour - ie, in the park etc when I have no existing relationship/friendship to maintain, and therefore don't care if I anger someone who isn't controlling a child who is interfering with dd. But somehow my paralysis comes into play when it's the kids of friends....

we are very keen on "house rules" which come into their own when badly behaved children visit. we tweak the house rules to deal with the behaviour of regularly-visiting horrible children. (my dsis, who i am very close to, has a 3 year old we find very difficult indeed, so it's a regular problem for us). i have trained my dds (who love rules) to instruct the visiting children in the House Rules. that way it seems less personal to the visitors. and they can hardly disagree with them really if they're couched in this way.

Interesting idea fennel - what sort of rules do you have that inhibit naughty behaviour of mean children? Specific examples would help. DD likes rules too, and is also stunned at blatant naughtiness.

it's a bit hard to explain cos ours are typically to guard against a brattish 3 year old so involve things like "spitting food is not allowed in our house". (subtext, whatever you get away with at home you'll be in the naughty corner for it here).

Rules which deal with visiting children include things like, there are toys/games in the living room which have to be shared with visitors. and "special" toys which child keeps in their room and doesn't have to share. child can choose which toys don't have to be shared.

and related, if there's any tension between the children, we say they have to play downstairs or in the garden, they can only play in the bedrooms if it's harmonious. so if it's a problem child visiting we ban going upstairs.

another rule is that children don't have to join in they can play on their own even when guests are around. (my dd1 likes her own space).

You need to borrow an older child to police things. If I suspect a playdate is going to cause trouble I make sure dd1 is on hand (and yes, of course I have to bribe her with extra msn time or Simpsons-watching). A sensible older child will have much more effect on the dynamics between a group of kids than a parent. If you don't have access to older children (!) get one of your dd's closest friends to come at the same time. Two against one is a much stronger position even for naturally delicate little characters.

Otherwise I'm with Custardo don't take any nonsense. And some parents just are crap one particularly unlovely incident involved the thuggish 5yo ds of an acquaintance breaking the glass in a picture, through reckless brandishing of a wooden sword which he'd already been warned about several times. And the mother had the brass neck to imply that it was my fault for having the picture there in the first place. Grrr.

this is a tricky one - my bf & i have no problem with caring for each other's kids - that means both discipline & treats, but i have another friend who doesn't like anyone else dealing with her kids, not even her dh. htat makes it really hard. my sister also seems to dismiss any ability i may have to control kids, & won't let me have house rules for her 2,(much older than mine), so they haven't been to stay for the last 2 years. there are some things i'm prepared to compromise on, and some i won't. if i was friends with someone who i constantly had a problem with, i'd have to bite the bullet, and say, either we both agree to these rules for the kids, or we don't meet up with them.

i had a problem in reverse when we stayed witha friend who insisted on rules i'd never dreamed of, e.g must wear shoes at all times, must sit at table throughout an entire meal without getting down (dd is 2, we spent nearly an hour having lunch!). i'm happy for people to correct her when she's wrong, but not to create meaningless rules, just because they do these things.

I would NEVER allow someone to shout at my child either!