Concerned about dd's behaviour

[nutcracker]

Well i took my dd for her pre-school booster today, and although i didn't expect it to be the easiest of times, i was totally unprepared for her behaviour. We had been in the waiting room for about 5 minutes before she started moaning and throwing her self on the floor (this was because an old man smiled at her). The nurse came out to fetch us and she refused to budge, kicking and screaming. We eventually got her into the treatment room but she refused to speak to me, the nurse and the student nurse and just kept on whinning like a baby (no really). It took me and the student nurse to hold her down for the jabs and she wouldn't even accept a sticker or sweet.
I know she was probably really distressed by everything but the thing is she does it all of the time. If someone speaks to her in the street then she screams at them and then won't speak, look at anyone or do as she's told, if we are out shopping and she starts then i have to come home because i just can't control her, as she will just run off. She has even ran in to the road before now. She has always been a hard to handle but i thought she would of grown out of it a bit by now. At nursery she is perfect.
We are waiting for a salt assesment for a minor speech problem, but i'm worried that when we go she won't co-operate. When she doesn't want to do something, nothing in the world will make her do it. Any development checks have always been a trial as she won't go near the h.v or do as they ask.
My ds (who's 14mths) is starting to copy her behaviour too.

no body ??????

Any opinions will do, even if you tell me i am completly over-reacting

Any opinions will do, even if you tell me i am completly over-reacting

Ooops, sorry.

how old is she nutty? Sorry I have no advice, maybe her speech is making her more frustrated? I dont know what to say, she must be hard work. My ds is pain too but he is only 2 so I am also hoping he will grow out of it. Does she have nice moments or is it always a battle?

If she is 'perfect' at nursery, might it suggest that she is looking for a reaction from you? I don't want to stick my neck out too far here, Nutcracker, but could she be picking up on the fact that you are experiencing lots of personal ifs and buts at the moment, and feeling a tiny bit insecure herself? Or noticing that you are a bit pre-occupied and demanding attention?
Whatever it is, the lots of praise / affirmation for all good behaviour while playing down reactions to bad behaviour can't hurt while you wait for the SALT assessment. If her screaming is related to people talking to her, she could well be feeling agressive or frustrated if she gets a negative reaction, or pressure from people about the way she speaks. Try to prevent people from EVER 'correcting' her speech or commenting, and just concentrate on really enjoying what she wants to tell you, however her speech comes out.

Sorry, but I don't think you are over reacting. Sorry if thats not what you want to hear.I have a "normal" child of 4 and have raised a daughter (now teenager) with severe behavioural problems.

I'm assuming your dd is about 4? If your DD does this occasionally, when she is very tired or having a bad day - that might be normal. Throwing tantrums, running away ditto. But you say she does it a lot/all the time. Moaning and throwing yourself on floor when people speak to you isn't normal 4yo behaviour.

Also sounds like this has been going on for a while , so isn't related to some temp problems you may have. My advice is to trust your mum instincts and try to get some help for her.Just my humble opinion.

My dd has this evil look that she reserves for people who try to talk to her in the street, or for doctors, visitors to the house, etc. However she is quite shy and it takes her a while to relax with people, when she does she is fine.
I agree that she could be feeling frustrated by not being able to communicate properly and also a little insecure.
A few things I would do are; to completely ignore her bad behaviour (not easy I know, but you could not make any eye contact with her or talk to her whilst she is like that, just physically restrain her if you have to) and really heap on the praise when she's being good. Even if she just manages to walk down the road with you without running off, I would really praise that. I'd also let her know well in advance where you are going and who you are seeing. Keep reminding her of this and perhaps make her a deal that she has a treat on your return if she's good.
You could even do a star chart with a treat at the end of the week if she has enough stars.

It really does sound as if she is doing this for attention. Try not to feel so down about it, I'll bet all of this sounds horribly familiar to a lot of us!

Hi, thanx for all of the replies. Yes my dd is 4, and we have always had considerable problems with her. I had pnd after she was born and didn't cope very well with her. She was a terrible sleeper (didn't sleep through until about 14mths), and then she was diagnosed with Asthma. I don't think that her speech is making her frustrated as it is only a very slight problem (can't pronounce L or R) and we don't comment on her speech at all. I really can't remember a time when she hasn't behaved like this. I don't really think that she's picking up on our probs either as she's always been like it.
I find it quite hard to explain to people exactly what she's like without it looking like i'm constantly moaning about her.
Don't get me wrong, she can be the most affectionate, funny and intelligent little girl at times, but when she goes off on one you know about it. I asked her why she sreeched at the old man, and she said ' because i didn't like him'. Thats a fair enough answer i suppose, but then she must not like anyone bnecause she does it all the time.
I have asked the h.v about her behaviour before but she said that if it was o.k at nursery then there wasn't really a problem. Nursery say she is fine whilst she's there apart from the fact that she won't play with anyone esle unless they ask/make her.
If she was doiung it at nursery too then i would have sort help ages ago. She starts school in september and i'm hoping that this will make her 'grow up' IYKWIM

Meant to say too, that a couple of times recently she has said to me "my eye has just twisted round and it hurt". I haven't got a clue what she's on about and i know it's probably nothing and not related in any way to the probs she's having, but i just thought i'd mention it. I tried to get her to explain what she meant but she just kept repeating it. It's happened about 3 times now.

At nursery - its it that she doesn't want to play with the other children or that they don't want to play with her? Does she want to play alone or does she seek one to one attention with an adult? Is she ok when you give her 100% of your attention and do what she wants eg playing a game with her when she is in charge and tells you what to do? Does she act out when YOU want her to do something reasonable eg hold hands walking down the street, sit in a supermarket trolley, be quiet while you talk on the phone?

I know all kids act up sometimes and have bad phases. But what concersn me about your Dd is that you say she does these things all the time & its been like this for years

Kids with emotional or behavioural problems often do the same kind of things as other kids their age (or younger)- its the degree and intensity & persistance that's different. That's why other people often dismiss your worries with " oh all kids do that". BTW not saying your Dd does have these problems - just telling you about my experinece.

Also not sure that I agree with Hv comment that as long as she is not acting out in nursery then that's ok. If your husband was beating you up at home but ok at work , no one would dismiss your feelings this way!!! ( NOT saying this is an accurate analogy BTW).

The eyeball thing - some kids press their hands really hard against their eyeballs and they can kind of pop for a minute or so. Its painful and weird - does feel like its twisted. Sorry, its hard to explain!!!

Agree with lesley76 that the behaviours themselves may be typical but its the intensity and repetitivesness that may be unusual. Also children with sensory needs sometimes press their eyes this way to get a new/different visual sensation - try pressing yours, you'll see what I mean, but most people don't like it! THey may also go cross eyed deliberately for this sort of sensation.

Lesley - Her teacher at nursery has said that they have to ask her to join in with activities, and if they don't ask then she doesn't try to join in. They said that she is very quiet but works well and isn't nasty to other children (she bites her sister). I think she is very shy and this is why she won't join in unless asked. A perfect example of this is this morning when i dropped her off. We had to wait outside to be let in and she spotted a girl from her room and just smiled at her. The little girl came over and asked if my dd wanted to play and off they went. If she hadn'e of asked then i don't think that my dd would of made the first move.
At home she is very different, she smacks, scratches, bites and pinches her sister and can scream like she's being murdered. She likes it best when she has my undivided attention. If my mom is here and we are talking then dd will always try to start talking to me and when i say i'm talking, please wait a minute, then she starts shouting and crying. If i am on the phone it is a nightmare.
I always try to make sure that another adult is with me if i have to go shoppinbg with dd because she can just run off or sit on the floor and refuse to move. If i walk off she stays there. She is very stubborn.
I feel like it must be something i'm doing wrong though as like i said, she behaves perfectly at nursery.

My sister's kids are as good as gold with other people and at school. They are perfect children whenever their parents aren't around. Then as soon as they are with their parents they become monsters. They will throw food, fight each other, call strangers names like "poohead", answer back, throw toys, etc. And these kids are 9 and 7! They've always been like that. However I can see where my sister is going wrong. She comes down hard on the bad behaviour, smacking, shouting, making threats (that she often doesn't carry out). But when they are being good they are more often than not ignored, their parents are just thankful for a bit of peace and leave them to it.
My sister has also had problems with depression and the kids have been affected by it more than she will admit to. They need to be given their own space and individual attention. She is always trying to get them to play together, or do activities together. If my nephew is invited out somewhere, she wants his sister to go along to, but they need time out by themselves. I think if she gave their good behaviour plenty of attention and ignored the bad, if she allowed them both space and time out from each other, she might be on her way to solving the problem. But then she has never listened to family, she likes to blame us for all her problems in the first place!

So what I'm suggesting is that perhaps some of this rings true with you? Maybe your dd needs some separate attention from you? Could you take her out for the day on your own? Could you organise one activity a week that she gets to do on her own with you? How about their father, could he do the same?

Hope you don't get offended by any of this, I'm not saying you are like my sister! Just that from your posts I can see certain parallels. And you've asked for advice, something she would never do.

Not offended at all Rhubarb - I think you may be right. Although i do praise her alot when she's good. I have tried to find an activity that i can take her too but as she will be starting school in september, i'm not sure where to take her. I don't want to get her really interested in something and then have to tell her she can't go anymore becuase she'll be at school.
Her sister goes to ballet every saturday, but she doesn't want to do that, although i thought the disipline may be good for her. I don't drive so i am limited in where i can take her.
Any ideas would be gratefully recieved though

Resurecting this thread as I have concerns about my ds. He is just coming up 4.5 and his behaviour really worries me at times. His language skills have always been excellent and on good form he is a happy, thoughtful, imaginative, affectionate little soul. However alot of the time he is very difficult. He seems to have almost no control of his emotions and particularly his temper. He has tantrums on a massive scale, with screaming, roaring, door slamming, throwing stuff etc. He can concentrate for quite long periods on something he wants to do but if he does not want to do something, he will not be cooerced. Even at nursery they have noticed this. He is at his best with lots of adult attention, where he leads the activities and at his absolute worst in group activity situations or if you ask him to do anything he doesn't want to do - from putting on his clothes to eating lunch. Even though he seems bright and has good vocab, speech he still has trouble recognising colours, no letter recognition, scribbles in the same way he did two years ago and hates trying to write.
When he gets over-excited his behaviour is so dysfunctional that I can see people looking at me with sympathy because they clearly think he is disturbed.
He was a very colicky, angry baby, easy from 9 months to 2.5 and has been really, really tricky ever since.
We have an appointment with a paediatric consultant coming up but I wonder, am I being neurotic and he is just a bit challenging or does he have a problem?

Bugsy - when he tries to write, does he hold the pencil in a 'normal' way or does he hold it only from the top? The reason I ask is that my ds1 is 3yrs 8mths but has been assessed as having the drawing skills of an 18mth old. A big part of his problem is a sensory problem. His hands are so sensitive that he can't bear to hold a pencil properly, get his hands dirty etc.

If that DOES sound like your ds (it might not) does he prefer to wear only certain clothes or eat certain food textures (eg no food with lumps/bits in?

A lot of my ds1's major tantrums came from these kinds of sensory issues. It was only when they were pointed out to me that I realised that there really was a connection between his environment and his tantrums.

This could of course be totally irrelevant in your case.

Thanks Coppertop but no, he doesn't seem to have sensory issues.

bugsey, IME massive door slamming tantrums can go hand in hand with lovely, sweet behaviour. My oldest son at 4.5 could behave excruciatingly badly, often with me and often when we were out. People who had seen him behave so nicely and charmingly on other occasions found it hard believe this was the same boy. My youngest son age 4.5 has similar big tantrums when he doesn't want to do something - he won't be pushed. Like your ds he is not over keen on drawing and, although he loves books and being read to, hasn't got much grasp of letter recognition.

I personally don't think there is much of a problem with him at the moment - my oldest son settled down and so (wisely or not) I am hoping my youngest follows suit. His school don't seem to find him a problem so far, but I am not too complacent - I know they will expect more of him once he goes into year 1 in September. I will cross that bridge when we come to it.

HTH

bugsey, IME massive door slamming tantrums can go hand in hand with lovely, sweet behaviour. My oldest son at 4.5 could behave excruciatingly badly, often with me and often when we were out. People who had seen him behave so nicely and charmingly on other occasions found it hard believe this was the same boy. My youngest son age 4.5 has similar big tantrums when he doesn't want to do something - he won't be pushed. Like your ds he is not over keen on drawing and, although he loves books and being read to, hasn't got much grasp of letter recognition.

I personally don't think there is much of a problem with him at the moment - my oldest son settled down and so (wisely or not) I am hoping my youngest follows suit. His school don't seem to find him a problem so far, but I am not too complacent - I know they will expect more of him once he goes into year 1 in September. I will cross that bridge when we come to it.

HTH

Bugsy, our ds, also 4.5, also has ridiculous, alarming tantrums from time to time, although just in the past few weeks he is growing out of them, so hopefully yours will too. I think if you have an articulate little child, they tend not to be frustrated at a younger age and therefore it comes as a nasty surprise when this sort of behaviour starts later. I know I'm not the only Mumsnetter with a boy who was very, very easy until he was over three...and generally people expect children to have grown out of tantrums by then so they are more judgmental about seeing one.
As ever, Tigermoth has provided more reassuring, wise words about letter recognition and drawing skills, and I can vouch for the fact that both her ds' are fab young men, just like yours, I'm sure.
I should think the consultant will also be able to give you some reassurance, but my limited experience suggests that boys suddenly "click" with letters and drawing, ds certainly did. He went almost overnight from having no real interest to being surprisingly competent. Maybe nursery can give you more specific feedback on this issue.

Marina's insight about boys suddenly "clicking" is new to me and in my experience absolutely right as well - up to his 4th birthday ds wouldn't hold a pencil, three weeks later later pages and pages of careful train tracks, then snails, now (coming up for 5) whales, girls dancing, maps of imaginary countries. Reading "clicked" too.

Also agree 4.5 is a difficult time, last summer was grisly with banshie screechings and tantrums, threatened with expulsion from the holiday club (the shame). There is a theory about it being the age when testosterone kicks in, and boys need time to learn to cope with the effects.

Thank you all so much. It is so good to know its not just mine. I find ds so incredibly difficult sometimes it moves me to tears of frustration. He is probably a bit better than he was 6 months ago, so hopefully he will mature a little bit before I die from the effort of trying to get him to say "yes"!!!!!