Moody 4 year old girl who won't join in

[Jojokaty]

My (nearly) 4 yr old DD has been really hard work since turning two. Tantrums, crying, moodiness, bossiness, rudeness, whinging and unable to take direction. She also has a big problem with joining in. Anything that is new about a situation she will freak out and start crying. Sometimes it's understandable ie. sports day and I don't expect her to be perfect but it often means I'm treading on egg shells or worrying what her reaction will be to something.

One thing that frequently sets her off is food, the colour of the plate being a big issue if its not pink. Clothes are often an issue aswell. I know I have to ignore bad behaviour but then other people say punish on naughty step etc. star charts for good behaviour, we've tried it all. It's so frustrating ... I'm beginning to wonder if I need some professional guidance. Sometimes I wonder if its more than a phase and she has a bigger diagnosable problem.... Sometimes I feel quite helpless like this is her personality and its going to always be like this.

She's going to be a flower girl at a wedding in September ... I'm just praying she doesn't have a meltdown in the church. I suppose I feel like I have a beautiful daughter and I just want to have a wonderful time with her. I also have a DS who is 22 months. She adores him so I don't think there is jealousy.

Anyone else with same issues? Please tell me they grow out of it!

From what you say, I do think it would be reasonable to ask for some professional input with this.

If she does have difficulties with, for example, sensory processing or social communication, then it would be better for her (and you) to get help and support sooner rather than later.

If it's just a phase, or part of her personality, then at least you got it checked out, and they might be able to give you advice or tips to manage the more challenging behaviour.

Thanks ... Where do I start?
A trip to the GPs or is private route better.
Just took a look at austism and aspergers things to look out for and most things are fine

But...

She's not great at holding hands/hugs with her friends I've noticed (ok with us)
Hates new scenarios and doesn't 'have a go'

Although...
She has fab imaginary play
Plays well with other kids
Ok eye contact
Good speech

She sounds exactly like my daughter who is the same age. Rather than seeing her as being difficult or in need of help, I just presumed she was naturally highly strung with a nervous disposition. I kind of think that every child is different and some are just a bit more emotional.

When school raised concerns about DS2 in Y3, we realised it was not something he was just going to grow out of. We made a list of all our concerns and took it to the GP. Got a referral to a paediatrician. He wasn't certain so referred DS2 on to a specialist centre for assessment. The whole process took 18 months. But, your daughter could be a neurotypical child who just finds new situations, joining in and change really difficult.

There is a huge range of children with Aspergers, SPD and other conditions, so although it's tempting to google, the internet is not the best diagnostician. DS2 is extremely articulate and has no problems with eye contact.

But, your daughter could equally be a neurotypical child who is just a bit sensitive to new situations and finds it difficult to join in.

Ok ... Thank you. I will make a list and start with the GP. It's gone on long enough now. Another thing that might be relevant is she is completely hooked on the TV. If I put it on she won't come away by herself. We also notice that it seems to affect her moods. But she absolutely loves 'watching' any screen.

I often think she is a child that learns by watching, not joining in. There's a huge amount of mental processeing which doesn't work if u are learning a physical thing. something like holding a pen took her ages - she would just throw it down in anger. She now does squiggles and pretend writing. She can draw smiley faces too. It is totally possible that she just takes a lot longer than most kids because she doesn't want to make a mistake.

Another thing I noticed early on was that when singing nursery rhymes in a group she didn't do the actions when all the others did. She seems to have gor better at that now but still seems to find physical stuff a bit hard. Would love to get her to a dance/drama club but she just wants to watch!

Thanks also Scarlett's mummy - often when I'm with my parents and sisters family I get to crisis point like this as they don't understand. When I'm with other mummy friends they say 'don't worry - mine does that too' and then I feel maybe its all just what they do at different stages.

My DD is exactly like this, I could have wrote your post actually.

Google 'sensitive children' and see how many boxes you tick, I ticked nearly all of them for my DD.

It isn't on the ASD spectrum at all, different altogether.

You have to bring these children up differently, looking back, I was definitely a sensitive child and now a sensitive adult. You can easily mistake their behaviour as mischievous and I suppose it is certainly sometimes, however these children react to their environment very differently to a 'non-sensitive' child.

HTH.

She got 13 in that quiz. Yes she is sensitive. But weirdly very confident and rather bossy with me.

But it's interesting ... How have you dealt with it?

There's part of me that thinks, 'don't panda' to it as it will make it worse and another part that wants to keep her happy in case it really is distressing for her and its not just a play act for attention.

I have noticed that if we are going to say a birthday party and we arrive on time (or a bit late as I normally am) she spends the first 45 mins either crying or sat on my lap. Then she warms up and bingo, she's back to a normal little girl. But if we arrive early before the others arrive and the other children join the party after her then she's fine.

I do understand to a degree as I am sensitive too (inwardly) but I have an exterior wrapper of Happy-go-luckiness that has got me through! ... I also love making new friends and going to new places... But maybe inwardly I struggle too with big groups. It's hard with my dd as often I can't understand what her problem is and end up telling her off.

Also, if she cries you seriously can't talk her round. How do you deal with that in public?

I would persevere with requesting a paediatrician referral.
You could also try The Explosive Child or Raising your Spirited Child for tips.

Oh BTW I would totally ignore the "don't panda". It is genuine agony for such children.

My youngest can not bear being late. She prefers to walk herself to school to ensure she is there on time, and for at least two of my children dressing up days at school has been agony (it is very fortunate that we live on the route to school so can usually see other children in costume before they have to go to school).

My DS1 was exactly the same at that age. He is now 10 and is on the ASD spectrum. He now copes well in most situations and appears to be neurotypical to most people.

I had no idea he could have Aspergers until he was 7 or 8. If I had known we'd have done things differently ie. be more tolerant of his food issues & just given him the colour plate he wanted. Like your DD he just cried at parties, but he has become more used to social situations as he's got older & loves parties now.

He can become very overstimulated in busy social occasions though and can suddenly get headaches or feel sick, so we tend to

Just leave, or take him somewhere quiet to calm down for half an hour or so & then he's fine again.

He has always had obsessions with things like TV or computers, so we are very strict about how long he can watch. ie. Tell him from the offset that he can watch for 1 hour or 1 show or whatever & then make sure he get 5 mins warning before it goes off & then off it goes. He may get annoyed that it goes off, but rarely has a meltdown because of it now.

I think trying to get an assessment done is worthwhile, but just wanted you to know that there can be huge differences of scale on the ASD spectrum & it is not necessarily something that has to be a big issue.

Before we had the diagnosis I began to treat my DS as though he was on the scale and his meltdowns reduced dramatically.

The irony is she often makes us late by having a meltdown about putting socks on or something :-)

It is exhausting. Also if we are out and she has a meltdown I find it best to try to ignore it but other adults tend to keep trying to interact with her or even worse they mimic her frown and say 'ah, why aren't you smiling' or something which then reminds her that she's crying. I don't know why adults do that. Children are great - they just carry on as if its not happening.

There's also a feeling that 'did I create this?' I've always been a sensitive mum - and would never leave my babies to cry. I'm not a tough mum... And other mums sometimes make me feel like I'm too soft. I've got better at being assertive with her and also letting DD have a good cry if she wants to without trying to make it all better. She should get the emotions out. Just wonder sometimes how much is personally which is innate and how much is moulded by parenting

My 3.9 year old DS sounds similar. I always feel like I'm walking on eggshells if I need to take DS to a new situation, party, dance class, whatever. It is really exhausting and his relentless negativity/cautiousness pretty much means that I avoid many situations that might be beneficial to him.

Having worked with children with ASD before, I'm 99% sure DS is not on the spectrum (amazing imagination and assigning things other purposes, eye contact, verbal, tactile/huggy, very sociable when in the mood...), but is quite nervous and sensitive. If he has a good day he gets on with things amazingly well, smiling sunnily and I can unclench, but on a bad day we never leave the house or I end up losing my rag at him after he has whined, complained, questioned and cried the whole day.

ToysRLuv I would have said very similar things to you about my DD, however she has just been diagnosed with Aspergers. The melt downs, fixations, and occasional violence to other children, led us to CAHMS and a diagnosis.
I had tried her with the checklists and they always came up as "not ASD" but she is a girl which makes things trickier, but also some criteria can be open to interpretation. The diagnosis makes a lot of sense, and helps her not be labelled as "violent" "manipulative" etc.

Hmm.. Thanks, jomaynard. I do wonder sometimes, but my gut feeling is that he is NT -just a moody, stubborn boy. Pre-school doesn't have any concerns, and I think primary, at the latest, will reveal any potential problems.

In the meantime in some situations I feel like everyone must be judging me and him, and that hurts. I'm trying my best setting limits and trying to understand/be flexible, but sometimes I doubt myself.

Key things to remember: parents often feel guilty and judged, other parents lie, and try to remember what things are really crucial, don't stress the little stuff.
I don't think leaving babies to cry toughens them up, it can cause emotional problems. However on the other hand some babies are just much harder to comfort.

Best thing to do is ask yourself honestly what your instinct says about your child I guess ... Mine tends to be affected by comparing to others and actually that's completely the wrong way of doing it. Also keep reminding myself that spirited kids will the the future and I don't want a wallflower of a child. I just also want her to enjoy her time as much as possible and compromise is something she needs to learn. Still going to get her tested.

My daughter got 17 in that test, I am going to order the book. Looks very interesting.

We've had a well behaved dd the last few days. Going to start a little record of when it happens and what starts her off. Maybe that will give some insight.

That's a good idea, may well do the same. We had a rubbish day today, lots of tears over a variety of things. I am hoping it is because she is over tired and a good nights sleep will work wonders- we shall see!

jojokaty this is very interesting to read as the you could be describing my dd 4.8yrs. She too has always been v emotional and had massive tantrums but of particular interest is what you say about your dd learning through watching and not always picking up physical actions as this is something that really stood out for me about my daughter.

i go through phases of getting really down about it and being convinced she needs further investigation (have been wondering about dyspraxia) then she will have a more settle period and I think I am just getting worked up about it. At the moment she is being really challenging - I too am trying to keep a diary of when things happen (she is definitely more challenging during periods of change). I am also going to get more on the ball with her diet to avoid any blood sugar dips as this seems to make things worse.

www.dyspraxiafoundation.org.uk/services/gu_symptoms.php

Just looked at this and don't think it is my Dd.

The past week we have done something called 'telly tokens' and I'm concentrating on giving them on the basis of her being polite, not crying if things don't go her way and not being rude. It's working! She seems delighted that she needs to earn a special ticket to get TV and a token is only worth 10 mins. It's weird but I focused on the TV because she loves it and yet it really stops her using her imagination. The less she has the more imaginative play she does and actually the happier she is.

I'm now convinced that she has just learnt that crying gets her message across and she knows how it destresses me. So I've realised I have to show her that the crying tantrums don't have an impact.

Still working on the 'joining in' that's much harder!

Ps. I'm managing to just give her 2 tokens a day at max.