disciplining an 18mo - is it even possible?

[patagonia09]

My DS is generally very sweet and affectionate to everyone, but sometimes he's a right little S.O.B. He may be "patting" my face far too vigorously, or throwing food on the floor, anything like that. I tell him "No" in a firm and serious voice, and gently but firmly take his hand and move it away and hold it still, so I think it must be clear what "No" is referring to. But instead of stopping, or crying, or having a tantrum anything like that, he just gets a slightly horror-movie-posessed-devil-child look in his eyes and carries on doing it. I can say "no" a thousand times and it doesn't make any difference, and I end up getting really upset that lovely DC is in fact a demon and feeling like I could just clock him one right in the face.
AIBU? Am I doing it wrong? I would take his food away completely but as he already eats like a bird I'm loathe to reduce his food intake even more.
Suggestions? When does a "naughty corner" become an effective technique?

Puppiesandkittens, is it not possible to ensure that your 13 month old baby can't access the oven? Why is she allowed access to it? If there is no way of blocking her access to the kitchen then in your position I would simply have to be super vigilant and move her away if she got near it - every time. I would not bother with any kind of "discipline" as she is 13 months old and it is meaningless to a baby that young. I would simply move her away every time she approaches the oven and say calmly "no, it's hot". Repetition will eventually sink in without having to resort to physical chastisement of a baby.

Haha surely I've read it wrong.. You hit your baby to show her that hitting it wrong? Err.. Yeah, that will work :confused:

I guess my experience with mumsnet ends here. I thought this was going to be a more open and friendly community and I didn't expect to get judged so quickly and wrongfully accused of bad parenting. I guess you're better off without me, the op doesn't need my advice anyway with you knowing it all.

It is a supportive community! My intention wasn't to hurt you, but to point out that it is wrong, for lots of reasons, to smack a 13mth old. It's just not what clued up parents do. I have an 11mth old baby & the thought of smacking him, or tapping him, is at best, pointless & at worst, cruel.

I believe you when you're say you're not hurting her but why don't you have a rethink about smacking?

Can't you see that by smacking you're teaching that its ok to smack?

Also, she is too young to learn consequences of actions so what you're doing is pointless, really.

Why don't you just stop smacking now, start using simple words instead & a firm tone to teach her right & wrong. At the same time, don't expect her to understand or be capable of changing her behaviour, she is just a baby. The idea is that, with enough repetition, she will eventually learn.

Puppiesandkittens, if you're still around, this is a supportive community. If you feel got at it's because a lot of people feel quite strongly about the physical chastisement of babies, causing some people to be a bit harsh towards you. I think that my post was fair and supportive, not judgemental? Supportive does not mean the same thing as "agreeing with you". Lots of people disagree with how you have suggested to deal with small toddlers and feel quite strongly about it.

I am curious what your plan is when your baby becomes older and is actually deliberately badly behaved? Hit her harder? My point is that once you start hitting for very minor undesirable behaviour, it would seem likely to escalate as your child's behaviour escalates.

Please do consider looking into alternative strategies for managing the behaviour of your baby. There are plenty of books as websites that will give you some ideas.

We started the naughty step with my Dd when she was about 17months and it worked a treat, she is now 2 and understands very well that she well go on the naughty step if she is naughty. I am not sure if her being able to talk almost perfectly at that age had anything to do with the naughty step working as she had a good understanding of why she was there

And 'avoidance'. You don't give him your attention, which at 18 mths, is what he really wants, You.
So you take the thrown food and go into the kitchen to Bon it. And you stay there. Equivalent of ' I will come back and give you my full attention, when you can behave/treat me nicely.
This 'attention withdrawal' can work very nicely.

Hitting a baby is always wrong. Look at her face the next time you hit her puppies. Does she look scared. Please rethink your strategies. This is really sad.

unfortunately some people are raised with smacking , either by their own parents, or by watching friends be smacked by theirs etc etc..
.....unless a child grows up without witnessing this, then they too find smacking acceptable (including lightly tapping hands, firmly handling etc etc) their own children, to stop what they perceive as bad behavior in their own child.

I believe that Puppies loves her child deeply, and she is just accepting of punishments / disciplining by lightly tapping a hand, (whatever it was) as acceptable.

It takes a lot (of sometimes deep soul searching) for some parents to realise that.... and see that other parents are not just having a go at them when we say its not an acceptable method anymore, I hope she can see that there are better methods, much better, that dont require any physical handling, and we here at mumsnet (most of us anyway)_ are only wanting to help

genuinely xx

and fwiw...

I was raised by smacking, :(

it probably started off as maybe >>my mum wanting me to see the fire was hot etc, by smacking my hand when I went near the fire

just wanted to say as well as

smacking does not stop bad behavior ...especially in the long term...it just makes your child fear you, or makes them smack others in turn

but that parents who DON'T carry out some kind of punishment, or only make futile efforts without consistency, or make half hearted attempts dont make good parents either !!!

because even though their little Johhny keeps snatching toys, pushing kids, hitting friends and throwing bricks, he's only doing it today because he's tired "bless him", or he's missing his Aunt Nora, or what ever other pathetic excuse he gets for REGULARLY hurting other peoples children,
this is also BAD parenting.

I have come across countless mums whom never discipline their "precious" children when they hurt our seemingly "non precious" children.

These apparently unaware, never did see what my child did wrong, type parents are also contributing to a form of child abuse, to everyone elses children. !!!

Really wish they would wake up !! because one day, their little Johnny will one day become BIG JOHN who beats his wife, or hits his children, or doesn't care for hurting other people in this world. !!!!!

....sorry had to say it

my poor children never get hit at home, but suffer greatly at toddler group, playschool etc etc ..& it always amazes me how these parents ALWAYS know who hurt their little Johnny, they never miss him getting hurt by others, but always miss it when he inflicts misery

At under 2 years I would just remove them from the TV/toy/other child, or if they were throwing food, remove the food. Personally I don't think consequences works at that age. My son is now 4 and reasonably well behaved. Hopefully that will continue!

At this age he is too little really. When you react by saying "no" he is compelled to do it again to see if the same thing happens next time. I don't think he is being naughty, though I know it very much looks that way. It's how they learn at this age, cause and effect, and they get excited by being able to cause and predict an effect (it fools them into thinking they have control over their lives when actually they have next to none!)

When he is nearer to three, he will be old enough to know that he is not supposed to do things if you say no, and at least will be developed enough to potentially be obedient (not that he will always choose to be!)

I spent ages worrying about my DD being disobedient between about 18mths and 3. Turned out that under three she was really just too young to be able to process the concept of obedience.

I think its still worth marking the boundaries firmly, esp with hitting. But move on quickly to distraction/something new so he doesn't get locked in the cycle of having to do it again to see if the same thing happens next time.

His brain is very immature and young, he doesn't think the same as you or see the world as you do. It's hard to remember that (god knows I want to throttle my 21 mth old sometimes!) but it helps if you can. He's not trying to wind you up.

Good luck!

panzee, taking away is the best method for most circumstances :) glad its working for you too .x

If my child throws anything, I ask them, calmly but firmly not to do it or it will be taken away, they do it again..its TAKEN AWAY !! if they are young (eg under 2) then its given back after 5 - 10 mins, and I reaffirm, if you throw it, I WILL take it away ok. (making sure they hear me by looking at me when i speak. If they refuse to even look, its usually defiance, and then i will say, "if you dont look at me, you wont get it back today" and I stick to exactly what I say ! if you bend rules, children bend rules.

The older the child, the longer its taken away.

same goes with food, ...

if you throw your food, you will be taken away from the table, > they throw food, they are removed (gently but meaningfully) from the table, returning after a few mins, depending on age of child etc.
if they continue in bad behavior, then after 3rd time (whatever you see fit for age of child, defiance of behavior) then tell them (and mean it) "if you do that one more time, you will leave the table & your dinner will be thrown away". if its consistent, every mealtime, and you always do the same punishment, they will soon know you mean business.

If the behavior doesn't improve over some weeks, then lesson the amount of warnings they get, as its maybe becoming a game? power struggle etc

if they hurt other children, remove your child from the play area, with same kind of warnings in place.....then give them a final warning if still no improvement after 2 /3 times if you hurt anyone else, you will go home, or if your already at home "the toys will be put away" etc etc (unless they have hurt someone badly, then the final warning of going home should really be given.)

removal of food, toys, child will usually start to work well if ALWAYS done consistently, as soon as you cut corners, pretend to not see, make excuses for them etc , it will not work & you'll be back to sq 1 .

hope this helps some mummies,

and this routine can work for any child old enough to demonstrate behavior such as throwing food (not accidentally dropping it of course) or hurting others, or being too rough, as long as you use words they understand & are always consistent, they will learn & understand.

as for dangers, again, remove them from the danger, & say " we dont go near the hot tea, we dont go near the road, use methods to keep them safe, such as reins near roads, safety gates, etc if too young to understand, hot tea always in a place unreachable. so when you do need to discipline, its because you have done all you possibly could to eliminate dangers first.

sorry its long, but hope it may help? x

I smacked my daughter once about a month ago.

It wasn't hard but she was shocked and cried. I felt extremely guilty and would never do it again. She is going through the terrible two's early and she bit my nipple, clawed my face and jumped on my head while I was trying to get her to sleep, and all in the space of about 10 mins. She was fighting sleep and being a general PITA. It was late, I was exhausted. When she jumped on my head I smacked her bottom. She cried, I soothed her and shortly after she smacked me too for trying to get her to go to sleep.

My lesson was learned and it won't be happening again. And no, she doesn't smack now as a consequence but she certainly would have had I made smacking a habitual form of punishment.

I agree that it is best to keep on saying NO. It does eventually start to sink in, and even though my DD still tests boundaries constantly, It is my responsibility as a parent to tolerate this as it is just a part of her growing.

There are days when she pours her juice everywhere, throws food around, destroys books and toys and pushes me to my limit. I just remove her from the situation, say NO (still perfecting my stern voice), and just clear the mess up. I engage her by explaining why she shouldn't make the mess and then get her to help me clean it up. Now she knows when she has done something wrong and is slowly starting to understand more and more.

She is 20 months old BTW.

We also did this:

"My little girl (19 months) did the same and I would take her hands say 'no, we don't hit, hitting hurts, we use gentle hands'

Then stroke my face with her hands. It's worked a treat and can be reiterated if she gets a bit excitable. Now I just say, 'we don't hit, show me gentle hands' and she strokes my face and says sorry. "

It genuinely worked for us and if she does get rowdy I say "ouch" and she realises she has overstepped the mark and strokes my face and gives me a cuddle to say sorry.

I've always been of the opinion that the food chucking is for attention so with both I have tactically ignored it. And op no you really but if he is hitting etc just prevent it by putting them down/ removing yourself.

I have no intention of getting into the smacking debate but if anyone has a failsafe way of keeping them from the oven let me know. I find this a nightmare with my 18 month old.

Keeping away from oven, stair gate in kitchen? I just let ny son touch it when it was slightly hot so he understood.

I just ignored food throwing and he grew out if it.

Say no to undesirable behaviour and be consistent but don't get stressed out about it.

Maybe you should read some child development books or take a parenting course because wanting to clock your baby in the face is a bit of an extreme reaction.

At 18 months old they don't understand, they're not doing it to annoy you. Just pick him up and move him. Every time.

I say something like "oh I see you've thrown your food. You must be finished." Then I take the bowl away (and my attention away).

With the food issue, I would make sure that the meal is a touch later to ensure a bit more persistence but then take him out of the seat after the first warning. Dont worry about amounts eaten. It will right itself later that day. With hurting, I would do a really frowny face, cross, say no, cross sounding sounding voice, shock, raise voice, annoyed and cheesed off, a little sentence indicating shock and pain, then finish it. Don't go on. That would give attention. in a sense you have to do a little act. Then quick distraction or they need a sleep or rest time.

in my opinion 18 months is too young to really get it. Just move away - give the least attention to the behaviour you don't like. Think of attention (whether it be a giggle or a firm no) as shining a torch. Don't shine the torch where you don't want to look!

When he does the patting next - say no clearly and if he does stop smile and say yes - well done or something like that very loudly. IF not, just move away or ignore it.

Its a slow game of learning good habits rather than getting rid of bad ones.

At 18 months i taught mine the sign for hot and did it when they went near the oven hundreds of times (even when oven was off) and showed them as per above by letting them touch when it was slightly hot.
Now 5yo ds is healthily scared of the oven and gives it a very wide berth when the door is open.