Really awful tantrums at 3?

[Axolotl]

Sorry if this has been done to death, but I can't find any threads about older toddlers who lose the plot! I'm just desperate for any tips anyone has on what to do with tantrums that escalate really quickly and are very severe. This is something that has got much much worse and now he is quite big (3.2 and physically large) it is very difficult to help him when he fights me or do deal with him clinging on if I ignore him. It is always sparked by a disappointment of some sort - being denied something he wants to do, even really silly, small things.Any advice at all so gratefully received!

my dd managed to get to 3.5 with no tantrums / 'terrible twos'-type behaviour. But now she definitely is more hysterical and emotional about everythiing. Plus she can be rude, hurtful (although her sense of remorse is quite powerful so if she says 'I hate you' within seconds she's weeping and saying 'I'm sorry mum are you still my friend?'), but most of all her frustration levels have rocketed sky high. Now if something isn't done 'just right' or she doesn't get something specific she cries and cries. As she doesn't get physically angry and she doesn't misbehave I have absolutely no idea how to deal with this. You can't put a sobbing child saying 'I'm useless, I can't do anything' on the naughty step can you?

So, all in all, I think 3-4 is a hard year!

No help to you Axolotl, just letting off steam.

I have two daughters (2 and 5) and both can tantrum/strop/ be abusive etc at times. I find one way of diffusing the situation is humour or 'rough'play. I pick them up and swing them, tickle them, give them firemen's lifts and make noises like an angry ape pretending I'm carrying them off upstairs or into the garden. Anything to make them giggle and laugh instead of howling. Basically I create a bigger scene than the one they are creating and this often stops them in their tracks. It's got to be dramatic and over the top. If they hit me I flop on the floor and yowl like a toddler myself - that always gets them laughing. I try to reinforce that they shouldn't do it and I make out that it really really hurt (not hard to do as it usually does hurt). Sometimes I get them to kiss it better and give me a hug. It's tiring and requires some ingenuity (you have to keep it fresh and try different things) but is more fun than getting into an argument with them. We all end up exhausted but lying on the floor giggling and it distracts them from what they wanted in the first place.

(Can dad's post too?!) We have a just-about-to-turn 3 year old. He's been very easy to handle, generally, no real terrible twos. We've used the naughty step to great effect. Obviously there are times when he loses it and there's not much to be done but to ride the storm, and then we either comfort or, as Vanessa19969 says, try to distract with tickles / jokes etc, or simply move briskly onto the next thing. I've been a little concerned recently that he is using tantrums as a bargaining chip. So our new plan is to be very clear that tantrums aren't allowed in our house - and that they lead to time out on the naughty step. This allows us to head off some tantrums with the explanation that tantrums don't work, but that speaking clearly and asking nicely do. Its a carrot / stick solution that seems to do the job at the moment. He calms down, and as long as what he wants is reasonable, then he gets that too. Of course it only works for volitional tantrums - you need to judge this. If I think he has genuine cause to be upset (he's very tired, feeling ill, having a cranky day, something real has happened to upset him) then the carrot / stick isn't used. You don't get punished for being upset! I really like yawning monsters comments about calming techniques and helping them to regain impulse control.

Yes dads are more than welcome! you'll find you're not on your ownsome as a dad Mumsneter

Edam - trying to wrack my brain about the axolotl - aren't they salamandas that haven't left the water - an aquatic rather tban amphibious salamanda - newty type of thing?

FloatingontheMed - your dd's attitude sound almost teenage in it's cynicsm. Can't really suggest anything other than positive reinforcement when she does something good (I still do this with my dd but don't let on!!!), this might help her to relearn the value of positive attention... it must be so difficult for you to know how to react and encourage better behaviour. Of course she has to know that slapping is completely unacceptable - just wish I had more input for you

Axolotl - there have been threads on this before - possibly started by me! - but not sure if the archive search is working yet.

Just to give you comfort - my ds1 had terrible tantrums, lasted right up till he was 4 or so, but since he started school he has improved a lot - so it will get better as they mature. If you had told me I would say this a year ago I would not have believed you! He does still get upset about things from time to time but is easier to reason with. Also, I strongly believe it is as much due to a child's personality rather than lack of parenting techniques - ds2 is 2 now but a whole lot easier - he has a very different personality to ds1, more like his sister.

All I can advise on dealing with the actual blow-ups is to always be consistent, keep up whatever technique you are using (time-out, etc) and even though it may feel like you are getting nowhere, it will improve eventually! (I used to send my son to his room btw)

What helped me a lot was to spend some one to one time with DS1 and focusing on his good behaviour rather than the bad sides. Otherwise, I was looking at him as a 'problem' child, spent my time being upset with him and it just didn't work.
At the same time, I continued being strict on things like hitting, kicking etc ... (time out)
Oh yes, something else that is working with DS1 : in the house, there is only one place where he can shout as much as he likes (In my case, our entrance). So if he isn't happy with a decision (eg wanted to watch TV in the middle of the afternoon and I said no), I just remind him that I can understand that he is not happy about my decision BUT the only place where he can shout like this is the entrance. He either calms down or goes in for a few minutes and calms down there(there is nobody there as a spectator ...).
Hope that helps too.

Thanks everyone so much for these replies. Mumsnet really rocks, doesn't it? And comments from dads extremely welcome.
Edam, not sure what's special about my namesakes, but they are a type of salamander and I just think they have a great name! has been one of my favourite words since I was about ten!
Ktpee, thanks for that - it helps to know it passes. Imaginaryfriend, I think she sounds like a very sensitive little girl. My elder son is like that and although he can be very complex, he is also incredibly loving and emotionally intelligent because of it. Does lead to some fun and games though sometimes...
SabineJ, I have noticed too that when we've had lots of good quality time, it improves.
Vanessa, I can sometimes get away with that, and maybe I ought to try it a bit more..
has anyone read Libby Purves' How Not to be perfect mother? Have just got it and it is so so funny and comforting. With toilet training, she says, it's not so bad to give them a sweetie really as a bribe and I have done it today with great success

Axolot
1st time on mumsnet and nothing new to add really but agree with daddynick about explaining and talking. I have a 2.6 little girl who is very strong willed and lively and the sort that will run 100 miles if you give an inch and I have to say consistency has always worked. No has always meant no so I'm careful about how I use it. Also when I see the face break for a tantrum to start I always say
"I can see your angry/cross with mummy but if you shout at me I can't listen to you. If you talk to me nicely then we can talk about why you are cross." I then always find a compromise or a distraction that works eg special toy reserved for occasions when compromise needed.
I know this sounds about NAFF but I think I read in the baby whisperer book (Tracy Hogg) about the importance of naming emotions so that your toddler can learn about what their internal feelings are and why they are doing/feeling the way they are. I have to say it so far works for me. Recommend her baby whisperer for toddlers book (try library).

Cue changes, count down from a number, set a timer on the microwave, give a reminder when there is 5 minutes, 3 minutes, 1 minute left. Stress that then he will get to do xxxx.

When he does change activities or cope with disappointment well (or better) praise highly.

I sing instructions to ds as he "hears" those better.

Another good tip - which was pointed out to me by a mother of a preschooler I teach was that when I take back a shaker, or put away the parachute my body is not tense and expecting rejection and a scene, but relaxed and I am smiling. She thinks that was the reason her son didn't get upset when I changed things and started forcing herself to get relaxed too.

My DD is 3.6. We had terrible twos early and they lasted a while but we got through them well with naughty step, time out etc. I congratulated myself on how well we managed.

Now, wham!! We are right back in the middle of the worst tantrums ever. My DS was born 6 weeks ago. We did everything we could to help her adjust but she has just spiralled out of control.

She is rebelling against every part of her daily routine. She screams constantly for nothing. Last night she finally went to bed at 11.30 - faught and screamed from 8.30. None of the usual things are working.

I ended up in my own room sobbing. Love my new baby so much but am starting to wish I had never upset things by having him. And I am starting to resent DD for making me feel like this. All of which is ridiculous - she is the child , not me!!

None of us seems to be very happy just now. Has anyone any suggestions.
Please help!

Hi Lusciouslynda we are in the same situation me and my wife Kremy dont know what to do anymore.Our dauthter changed her behaviour alot she is much more gealous now and possessive towards her mom. She wakes up every single night several times calling for Kremy just to be there with her ALL THE TIME if our baby cries she starts to simulate somethigs wrong with her just to keep her mom there. Now were are doing shifts during the night to go and take care of our daugthter every time she starts!! WHAT TO DO!!!!!!!

found out the fascinating thing about axolotls on wikipedia - they can reproduce before maturity, in their infant, larval form. Knew they were some sort of biological oddity!

Thank Divasmum, I feel a bit better knowing that it isn't just us going through this.

I am actually starting to find it funny - sometimes - that everytime I even glance at the baby my DD tries everything to put herself between us, in my line of vision. She is a regular gymnast!

Do you feel guilty, like me, that by having another baby, you are putting her through this? Or is that just some left over pregnancy hormones on my part?

lusciouslynda, you may already be doing this but try to involve your dd as much as poss with the baby, let her help and have her own special jobs, let the baby "ask to see her", etc. Or you could try buying her a "baby" of her own, so she can do everything you do. I do so hope things improve soon - I'm sure they will. Your daughter will realise that the baby is there to stay. I hope you get to enjoy your ds as much as you deserve to!

tooticky, you are kind! I have tried these things and they do work - sometimes. DD seems to love the baby and he saves best smiles for her so I guess the feeling's mutual. She is just finding it hard to share her mum.

I think that I will just have to wait for the storm to pass. I wish I could wave a magic wand...sigh!

lynda DO NOT WORRY i order you! No seriously - i have three months ago had my fifth child and have never experienced what we went through this time . Our ds4 ( aged just 3) went terrible...tantruming ..disobedient ,, not sleeping...SO loud - well basically just horrible . One night he left the house in the rain and snow and i had to call the police. I had to change all the locks so he could not reach them. He had been a quite little mouse till the baby was born. He would scream at me ' do not feed him'
I rang the hv ( useless) and asked friends i got differeing advice. Then i went to lunch with a woman i harldy knew who had also a 3 year gap between her last two. ( she had 5) she said 'just chill - around 4 months it will all go back to how it was'
She was so right. I would say it peaked in awfulness around 8 weeks and now at 3.5 months he is almost back to how he was...a little more demanding but at least the same as before
Good luck bedtime for me now hth!

I had thought that by waiting till she was 3 to have the next baby we would somehow be able to avoid this. How wrong can you be!!

Notanotter, I will bow to your superior knowledge and try not to worry.

Knowing that you are not the only one going through this helps a lot. I had actually thought that we were experiencing something unusual!

Edam
Thank you for that interesting fact - I will now be passing that on as if it were my own!!

Luciouslynda, so sorry about your sib/rivalry problem, but I'm sure it will pass. I had a four year gap, which was a lot easier. I suppose we forget that 3-year-olds are still so very little and complicated. Someone once said this to me about having a second child: It's like your partner comes home one days and says, 'look I really do love you a lot, but I'm bringing this other wife back home too. It doesn't mean I don't love you anymore though!' Which kind of puts it into horrible perspective for the elder sib, doesn't it!

(I keep reading your name in my mind as 'lusciously - nda' Am I weird?)

Lucioslinda,dont bother about the feeling of guilt u are having, Iam bassing through the same.My husbant let my DD HAVE LUNCH with with his anty,without asking me ,but with the very good intension to let me rest and stay only withg the baby,my reaction-cried my self out that am giving away my daughter,kind of betrading her .!!

I can assure you that with a new baby and a hysterical 3 yr old I am not feeling or looking at all luscious at the moment. (can't remember the last time I was!)
I have found all you mners really helpful and you have all helped me to chill out a bit more over the past few days. Which has improved things slightly as I am not taking the bait so often.
Honestly, how scary can a mixed up 3 year old be? I think I just set too high standards and expect things to be perfect all the time so i am bound to be disappointed sometimes.
Anyway, dd really made me laugh today when she told her gran that she could see her big nipples bouncing up and down.

Hiya

I have only had one major major major tantrum which was terrible biting, shouting screaming, hitting you name it - and short of going insane and doing something I would have regretted I demonstrably threw his dummies in the bin which he loved so much and told him why - he was 2.5 then and he still remembers it now at 2.9 - as Dr Phil used to say you need to find their currency and then warn them that if they do so and so - you will take whatever they value away (apart apparently any blankie or teddy used for security) but books games etc.. dr phil used to put them into a big box with a lock and they could be 'won' back for good behavior..

Good luck - and let us know what happens - as you know yourself once something works for a while the little rascals figure it out and it no longer works!!!!