My 7 year old DD is vile and I don't think I really like her most of the time :(

[katehastried]

Well that's it really. She has always been 'demanding' and has had periods of extreme anxiety/depression and is really hard work. But recently she has been rude and having tantrums.

I am divorced from her father and sometimes I fear she is really like him: just full of rage at the world and complaining about how rubbish her life is and that she hates me and hates herself.

Today she had a four-hour tantrum, for most of which she was told to go and stay in her room. I have talked to her school social worker about her and she has had a variety of sessions, and the social worker basically says that she is a huge attention seeker.

I have tried so hard to raise her well, gave up work, did painting, cooking, gave her all my attention, I'm strict with boundaries, I feel like I do everything I can, but she is just horrid. It means I have lately given up going on days out etc. because she just spoils them.

I have an older dd who is absolutely fine, totally nice and calm and enjoyable company.

Sometimes I feel such as a failure and I don't know what to do. I don't enjoy this at all and I often feel as though I am going to lose my rag.

Any advice welcome really. Sometimes I count the months until she leaves home. I feel like a terrible person. :(

Sorry you are having such a hard time of it. She sounds very unhappy.

Have you tried the book 'What to do when you worry too much' it's fantastic and as well as being a good story and a way of explaining tensions to children, it is also a work book which gives the child a chance to really get stuck into it. At the same time the child can start to open up about what it is that is troubling them so much.

Hope this helps and hope you get some good advice.

My DD is similar- CAMHS have suggested assessing for Aspergers. When she was depressed, had anxiety, what help did she have?

Does she have counselling through the school? Family therapy might be helpful too, can the school social worker help refer you?

There is something deeper than just attention seeking going on here, there is a reason she wants the attention. It is quite negative of the school social worker, just to write her off as an attention seeker.

She is only 7, a lot can change at that age with the right support. You could also go via the GP for help.

She had/has counselling through the school and has seen counsellor/social worker/ed psychologist at school and has helpers for anxiety. They have all concluded that she has separation anxiety but also a serious need for attention and it seems that they are not too keen to give her too much 'special attention' now because they think it is fueling her need for more and more attention and she is beginning to make up reasons why she is unhappy (she has come up with stories that are just not true).

The school has been very helpful and her behaviour at school is much much better than it was. She is still awful at home though.

What age did her separation anxiety start? Was it linked to the divorce?

I can understand their reasoning as giving her special attention would create a dependency on them.

I may be way off the mark, but it sounds like she needs/has needed in the past something from you that you weren't aware of/couldn't provide at that time. So she started acting out to try and get it, from you or anyone else who might provide it.

She is still your vulnerable little girl under all that behaviour, she is not vile, but some of her behaviour is horrible. Try to see it as her behaviour not her, she will pick up on your feelings even if you do not voice them and it will reinforce the cycle of negative behaviour. Most of our communication is non-verbal, if you don't like her she will pick up on it. Think about when you have met someone that you can just tell doesn't like you, you just know. I am not telling you this to make you feel guilty. I know that it is very, very hard to do, when faced with extreme behaviour. You will need support and maybe your own counselling to deal with your feelings.

I think family therapy would be useful to look at the dynamic between you and support you as well as her. My mum used to do this for a charity that the NHS referred families to, it worked well for helping parents to develop strategies to manage and change their children's behaviour.

Have a look at Love Bombing by Oliver James too, it might help you rebuild your relationship via positive experiences together. Your little girl needs you more than anyone else right now, you and your love.

Thanks Stitch.

Her separation anxiety has been forever, but it got much worse after the divorce. She has always been really hard work. Part of the reason that I wanted to get divorced was so that I could have some time away from her while she was with her dad - terrible thing to say, I know. Maybe she always knew I felt that way. I just wanted to sleep at night without being disturbed and wanted an end to the constant screaming and dramatics.

I like the idea of counselling but I am a single parent and work full-time, and I don't have any time to myself. I pick her up from school and work late at night to make up hours, do long days/weekends etc.

I agree that she must sometimes pick up on my feelings about her which must be awful for her.

I will think about the love-bombing and book recommendations.

That sounds tough Kate. Does she see her dad? Could you arrange counselling around his contact time? Is he at all supportive and how is her behaviour with him if he does have contact? What about other family/friend support to give you some down time to regroup? Would after school club a few days a week be an option? I imagine it is hard to have the reserves to manage her behaviour when you never have any time for you.

Can I ask did you have an easy time when she was a baby or was she always high needs? Were there any feeding issues/illnesses when she was a baby/child that could have impacted your bonding process? Please don't feel obliged to answer if you are not comfortable to.

Just thinking about children that I have known to be high needs or have emotional/behavioural issues, some have had childhood conditions which led them to need more attention (even if later not an issue I.e hernia/hole in the heart), for others their parent has been unwell (thus heightened need for reassurance). For others the parents relationship impacts them, or a family loss.

When children come into the world they become a satellite to your planet. They need you as a stable reference point to rotate about otherwise they end up in an orbit that is a bit wobbly. Anything that shakes their bond with you (even new siblings for example) can upset their equilibrium.

If you can unravel where it started it might help you understand her better and help you restore the equilibrium.

And some children are just like that - harder to manage :( It may not be anything you've done or not done as s parent.

How does your ex manage her? How is he with her?

Kate no advice as mine are not yet old enough. I don't think you are a bad parent though and do know that many on mn are very experienced (sadly). You will get great support here and ideas.

Rooting for u. Best wishes

www.youngminds.org.uk/for_parents

I found them very helpful

I would strongly suggest going to see your GP and getting an alternative route into getting her help.
You could also go to the special needs area here for more advice.

I also wondered if it could be ASD which is harder to spot in girls and "withdrawing attention" will not help at all.

You could also contact your local parent partnership for advice, especially with dealing with school.

Unfortunately schools and parents aren't always singing from the same song book, as schools have huge financial pressures. They don't always have the money, training or time to deal with SEN, and so try to ration help.

And some children are just like that - harder to manage It may not be anything you've done or not done as s parent.

This is one of the most sensible statements I've ever read on Mumsnet

I agree some children are just more difficult than other, but I do think counselling can help.

Extreme attention seeking can be dealt with, I have worked with children with similar behavioural issues (I'm a MHCP)

Does your DD tell lots of lies generally or just when she is lacking reasons for attention/being unhappy?

Some children can be more difficult than others, but to say "they are just like that" is IMO not very helpful as it does not help the parent or the child get to the root of the issue and make changes to the behaviour.

In young children there is generally a reason. It may be a a physical medical illness or nutritional deficiency or an emotional/psychological issue that leads them to behave the way they do. There may be a complex combination of factors.

It is not the parents fault (don't like the blame game), but the behaviour of the adults around them helps the child orientate and calm themselves if they are experiencing strong emotions. Often as the adult if you change something you are doing the child will change too.

I experience this all the time in teaching, especially with children with emotional and behavioural issues. You have to be reflective and think 'what could I have done differently?' all the time. It is ok to make mistakes, it is how you learn from them that matters. None of us is perfect. No one approach works all the time for every child, you have to feel your way constantly.

Useful link talking about implementing 'special time', useful for everyday love-bombing on a smaller scale.

Praise is crucial (we do not do this enough, for one hour this evening count how many times you praise your dd). In teaching we are taught that the praise to criticism ratio you should aim for is 5 positive comments for every 1 criticism. It doesn't matter how small the positive comment is '"well done for getting your shoes on", "you did really well at reading that sentence/sounding out that word" they all count.

Also look at Nigel Mellor's The Good, the bad and the irritating. is him talking about his approach.

Hope you had an ok today kate.

I found it immensely helpful with my more challenging child to start from a point of acceptance that this was in part her nature. I am not keen on the purely behaviourist approach because it is not supported by scientific evidence and it makes the parents self-blame and self-analyse more, and more, and more. Accepting that some behaviours are rooted in your genetic lot in life can be liberating, and allows you to make allowances for things IME. It doesn't mean it's pointless to change the way you do things, not at all.

Family therapy sounds good. And I second getting your DD checked out for ASD or sensory processing issues, if you haven't already.

Am highly skeptical of Oliver James and his mysogynostic twaddle (sorry pp above, just had to get that off my chest ) love bombing is an idea as old as the hills and I'm not convinced it's got much evidence behind it.

Well every child and family is different ragusa, so I am glad you found a way that worked for you. Whatever works is good, I am just throwing in suggestions as a starting point.

Hi all

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

Stitch: her dad is fine with her, I think. He does have anger issues, but she hasn't complained about being with him.

She doesn't tell a lot of lies but she makes up reasons that she is sad, for example, talking about how she wasn't invited to a party that perhaps she was invited to but she has forgotten about. It's almost like she looks for reasons to pin her sadness on.

I do worry that there is a genetic element. There is a lot of mental ill-health in the family. I always told my family I wouldn't have kids in case I passed it on. Now I'm worried that I've done that.

I had a very difficult birth with her (physically) although it was a natural/home birth - but I remember me being at death's door afterwards and everyone fussing around me while I listened to her screaming alone at the other side of the room. :( I've always felt bad about that - felt like a terrible start!!!

Apart from that, nothing really I could pin-point.

I have found all this advice very helpful. Today I have been trying to give her more positive attention /affection and I will definitely work on this. I think it is a cycle of her being annoying and me withdrawing that doesn't help at all, as people have pointed out.

I feel like this about my 9yo DD. I'm sorry, I don't have anything helpful to add to the thread and the weight of the guilt I feel and the hugeness of the problem is too much for me to discuss but I understand how you are feeling OP and hope yours and my situations somehow get better.

I would strongly suggest that you seek some counselling for yourself, you actually sound a bit anxious and if you have a lot of worries to work through.

I would also suggest finding a parenting course, or if you've done one maybe meeting up for coffee with other people from there to chat about your children. Because actually a lot of what she does sounds quite "normal". Eg. Looking for a reason to explain why she feels sad. This is even more "normal" if it happens at bedtimes. My children have (and still can be) often been in tears at bed time, usually over small events that have happened during the day but it could be anything random.

Do make sure you also look after you, a nap before the witching hour can be crucial to coping. Some peace while drinking a cup of tea, some exercise etc. can all be very helpful.

kate my eldest talks about how she is sad about to me quite small things, but to her they are not small because her world and understanding is that of a young child. Sometimes she describes what I would term disappointment as sadness too, I think that is normal processing of emotions.

The thing that jumped out for me is the cycle you describe and her extreme tantrums, 4 hours is a long time. She will need help from you to self calm and bring her down off the ceiling, you can only do that if you can calm yourself. Counting to 10 and taking deep breaths is useful for you if you feel your hackles rising. Low, calm voice when asking her to do something and repeat as many times as necessary. Walk away, go into another room and scream into a pillow if you need to (so long as she won't hear you), then go back in. She needs this in order to feel safe, it can be very scary to have such extreme emotions raging inside you. You are her security, her mum, the one who has always been there to depend on.

Tell her you love her and give her a big hug after every blow up then talk calmly about the behaviour you didn't like, why and what you would like instead.

I think if you can get some support for you it would be a really good idea, the stronger you are, the easier it will be for you to manage her behaviour.

If you think your DD is vile and you don't like her a lot of the time - she will sense that emotion in you and react the way she does - and then you like her less - so a vicious circle starts.

I don't think it matters how many things you do for her if you have a feeling of dislike for her - she will 'know' how you really feel!

Counselling would certainly help you deal with your feelings as it appears to have started with her birth. That delivery must have been awful for you and left you with confusing emotions.

I really believe she is reacting to how you feel about her.