DSD (nearly 8) still wetting in day

[babyhmummy01]

My DSD is 7 nearly 8 and is having issues with wetting herself - when we try and talk to her about it she says that she knows she needs to go but is too busy doing whatever she is doing i.e playing and doesn't bother going.

We spoke to mum last night when we dropped the kids back and she now says this has been going on for the last couple of years on and off (having previously denied any knowledge of it). She has taken DSD to the docs and there is nothing physically wrong and mum is adamant its just laziness and being too distracted as its mostly when she is at home or playing at the park etc. I have asked Mum if it could be anything at home to do with divorce and house move etc which is when she said no cos it had been on and off since long before her and my DP split up.

We have tried;

• to talk to her about whether anything is upsetting her or worrying her and she says not, when you question her she just says she didn't want to stop playing.
• to remind her to go but she gets very defiant and cross at us asking which I think may end up being counter productive.
• to use the baby as a way of helping her. she is VERY excited and is talking all the time about all the things she needs to learn so she can teach the baby ie tying her own laces. We have tried to tap into this enthusiasm and say to her "we need you to be a big girl and show baby how to use the toilet properly and stay dry"
• rewards and consequence for her actions
• try to explain that she needs to tell us so we can clean her up etc (she is getting nappy type rash from it and is sore down there) and she seems to understand

Nothing is working and DP, Mum and I are at the end of our tether's with it. I have asked mum to take her back to the docs and get a second opinion so we can definitely rule out there being any physical issue and DP has said if she doesn't do that this week he will make the apt and take her.

What else can it be? I hate to think that it really is just idleness but both her mum and dad think this is the cause and tbh it is starting to look more and more like it.

I don't think it's as uncommon as you might expect but I would imagine it's very annoying!

have you tried a reward system? Perhaps for every day she manages without an "accident" she could get a star on a chart or a pebble in a jar.....when she gets for example 5 stars then she gets a small award....some little toy or some sweets...when she gets to ten days she gets a day out or cinema trip...that sort of thing?

I feel for all of you. I'm not a doctor but I don't think it's ususal for 7-8yo to be doing this regularly. It would be understandable as a one-off if she was too busy/distracted but many 7-8yo are also busy and distracted but usually don't miss signals for the loo except once in a blue moon. It also sounds odd that she says she doesn't bother going, as if on purpose ie she knows she needs to go but actually doesn't bother and lets herself get wet when she could have easily stopped it. As opposed to oh no - I forgot to go and now it's too late.

Is she embarassed? Most kids would be mortified at wetting themselves, at an even younger age and as a one-off. Is she appparently not embarassed, if so, is it genuine or a cover up (she is mortified really but doesn't want to show it?) What do her friends think? Does she wet herself in private or do you actually witness it? It appears she doesn't always tell you when she's done it even when it's become uncomfortable for her. I would say if she was genuinely too busy (which is not a common event) then she would be loud about having done it as it would be a surprise IYSWIM and then she wouldn't not tell you/have to hide it. What about soiling? You don't mention this so presumably she doesn't have a soiling problem. She does know the signals for that and can get herself to the loo for that with no problem.

I would most definitely take her to the doctors yourself. She could have a long-standing urinary tract infection which isn't painful but does make it difficult to judge how long she's got to get to the loo. You said that her Mum "now says this has been going on for the last couple of years on and off (having previously denied any knowledge of it). She has taken DSD to the docs and there is nothing physically wrong". I hate to cast doubts but it's a bit fishy that she has previously denied any knowledge of this problem, and only now says (after you bring it up) that she has actually taken DSD to the docs and there's nothing wrong. Why wouldn't she have told you before that a) she knows there's a problem, b) she was taking DSD to the docs and c) the doc said it wasn't physical, before? At least if you take her to the docs yourself you know she's been checked out. They will probably want to run some urine tests etc. They can certainly offer further help and advice.

In conclusion I think you need to explore the physical side a whole lot more and think idleness is right at the bottom of the list of reasons yet.

neo tried it and it hasn't made an ounce of difference - we are now using my sister's wedding as a "BIG" reward, if she stays dry for the next month then she can carry on being a flowergirl, if not then she can't come...I know that sounds evil but I would be devastated if my little sisters big day was ruined by DSD wetting herself.

Cloud - not embarrassed at all by it - the only time we get any reaction is when she realises her 'I haven't wet, I am not lying' isn't believed - she was soaked yesterday at my best mate's baby's christening after being in the play centre and stank so we knew she had wet but denied it for ages and then when I said to her ok well go to the toilet now then she stood quite defiantly and said, "ok I did wet but I was busy playing and didn't want to stop"

As for soiling, has happened a couple of times but not as often as wetting.

She had a UTI in May which she was antibiotics for and has been given the all clear by her GP so don't think it is this. As SM my hands are tied but I have said to Mum I will take her if she gives me the ok, but DP wants to give her a chance first.

I agree to the 'bit fishy' comment though, I think she realised that DSS had told us that it happens a lot at home. From what DSS says mum gets very cross and yells, which may account for her hiding it. I get cross and stern with her but don't believe that shouting the odds is the right way to deal with it. We try to go along the lines of being 'disappointed' and reminding DSD that she is the only one who can change things to try and bring it home.

TBH both kids are very poor at looking after themselves in terms of washing, toilet habbits etc. Whilst I would never say it out loud to DP, I think an awful lot is to do with poor parenting from him and his ex when the kids were learning

if it was a physical issue would we not see more of it at night than in the daytime?

sorry I don't have my own kids (33 wks with number 1) so no idea but I do have nearly 20 years of working with 5-10 yo's and never seen this with the kids I deal with except one who had a diagnosed problem and had to have limited fludis after a certain time at night

Is she constipated? What is her bowel function/habit like?

You mentioned occasional soiling. This, together with wetting, is a big red flag for encopresis, which in turn very often has a psychological/emotional cause.

I think you need to take this very seriously and get her back to the GP asap.

My Dd has had this problem since she was about 4 or 5. She had persistent UTIs and has been on and off antibiotics ever since - she is now 12. Do talk to the doctor again and make sure they are checking for infections. I could tell with dd as her urine was very smelly with each infection. Dd was referred to urology specialist and was found to have a lazy bladder - she is now much better after treatment and we are hoping shewill be off antibiotics soon.
It has helped to know that it is not that unusual. I think we were told that at your Dsd's age about 1 in 30 kids will have a problem like this.
Also while it may be tempting to restrict her drinks, it is actually better to ensure she drinks plenty so her bladder is fuller and the signals that she needs to go are stronger. This will also help flush any infection through. The trick is to get her to go to the loo before she thinks she needs to. We have got into the habit of never passing a loo without checking when we are out.
This post is a bit long but hope it helps.

There is some info here...

www.eric.org.uk/assets/Causes%20of%20daytime%20wetting.pdf

I just think you need to go back to the doctors so a physical problem has been ruled out. If it's psychological, I have no idea what help there may or may not be for that, but the doctors would still be the starting point. I don't think it's normal to wee yourself on purpose at that age. It's normal to occasionally have an accident but not because you can't be bothered to go to the toilet and certainly would/should be at least a little bit embarassed at weeing somewhere public like in a play centre at a christening. Is it a self esteem issue? Does she have many friends? I can't believe her friends don't think this is odd. Does she wet at school or is it just at home?

Moving on to her not seeming to care about wetting. You mentioned standards of cleanliness and that the kids are very poor at looking after themselves. Do you make/encourage them to have high standards at your house, and model that yourself, eg everyone washing hands before lunch, bedding gets changed once a week, they have a bath or shower every night? Clean nightwear changed regularly? I am wondering (if you don't already do this stuff) if she might enjoy more of a focus on clean & fresh. It's a basic human instinct (and a right for children) to feel clean, fresh, warm and dry. If it wasn't encouraged much in her early life, would it help if you increased efforts in this department? Bought her fresh new bedding/new nightclothes/new knickers and socks, nice bubble bath, pretty soaps. I think what I am getting at is encouraging her to enjoy the sensation of being thoroughly looked after physically and also to learn to enjoy how pleasant clean and fresh feels. If she didn't have much focus in this area growing up then she hasn't come to expect to enjoy feeling fresh and clean. What are her clothes like? Does she care for pretty clothes or is she a tomboy? Is there any shoes she wouldn't like wee to get on? Basically is there anything you can appeal to a sense of pride and not wanting to spoil that might encourage her to go to the toilet?

I am aware that kids do not need bathing all the time or hair washing all the time or clean bedding replacing constantly but I am wondering if increasing focus on those areas would help refocus her mind towards taking care of herself without it being strictly a focus on weeing and wetting.

babyhmummy01 Mon 01-Jul-13 09:13:55
"if it was a physical issue would we not see more of it at night than in the daytime?"

Not necessarily. Dd never wet at night after the age of 3, but did wet in the day until the age of 10/11. In her case, it was put down to weak bladder muscles and she was on medication for a while.

OP, I very much doubt that dd would have been able to come up with a reasonable answer for why it happened if we hadn't explained it to her. Defiance is a normal reaction from a child who doesn't understand what is happening to her. Pretending something isn't happening is also a normal reaction.

Ds used to tell us that he couldn't be bothered to learn to write. It was only much later that he realised that it wasn't normal to be in constant pain when you held a pen (undiagnosed joint condition) and that this was the reason he couldn't do what the other children did. He just assumed it was the same for everybody and that the other children could be bothered and he couldn't.

Will keep.on with des. Thanks.for.the advice folks

Clouds, yup high stds here, have even taken.her to.the loo and shown her how to wipe etc.

I haven't spoken to school myself but do has and she has the odd accident but nothing specific, but she has a strict routine.

The des have ruled out a uti but I do think there is more than just idlitus. I think a lot is poor parenting, dp was excluded from everything, his ex was very controlling and him trying to intervene caused huge rows apparently. He is a bit of a Disney dad at times but is learning. He hasn't got to.the point yet where he can stand his ground with ex, but seeing as how her personal care has dropped markedly in the time I.have been involved (always has greasey hair etc) I do think.she is setting a poor example.

We are not in a position to fight for residency unfortunately but I think that would do more harm than good if I am.honest. but wish we could even as a temp.sol to.teach them basics

I agree with everything Perdita said, dd1 had similar issues though in her case it was an overactive bladder. She also had on and off infections (caused by not being able to empty bladder properly) and really smelky urine when she had an infection.

They pretend not to care as a defensive mechanism, they do really.

Check the Eric website it is fantastic, call their helpline and they'll explain much better.
In the majority of cases kids this age really can't help themselves, but because they think wetting themselves is babyish they'll come up with all sorts of excuses. They'd rather be seen as naughty than babyish iyswim.

Good luck x

How old is the baby you mention? Is the wetting something that started around the time he/she was born ir something she just never grew out of?

Just wondering whether it might be an attention thing (even subconsciously). Does she get a lot of attention (or at least diverted from the baby) when she does it?

I hope this doesn't sound accusatory.

Baby not born yet neo

It's been happening on and off for about 18-24 months do long before me and impending baby.

I wondered about attention but having worked hard with her dad to teach him to split his tome more fairly she gets significantly more attention than ever before and is still wetting. I suspect from what others has suggested esp the horrendous smelly urine that there is a physical reason. Will keep on at dp amd mum to arrange s GP appointment for her.

Thank you ladies you have been fab

Hope you get it sorted. And congratulations on the new baby.

Thanks neo