7yr old and 5yr old not getting on. We can't continue like this. I'm in a muddle. Advice appreciated.

[oinkment]

7yr old daughter. 5yr old son.

She is just so, SO irritated by him all the time. I do understand that your little brother is annoying. I do. I had one myself. But I find it hard watching her be SO poisonously furious with him about every little thing when, honestly, he's not that bad.

When he is being a pain I intervene. For example if she says he's not allowed in her room and he goes in anyway he gets in trouble and I take him away and distract him.

She is getting herself in such a state. She's often tearful because she is overwhelmed by it all. I want to help her deal with this because it is making her so unhappy, but I also feel like she's causing most of it. She goads him, she's mean to him, she hurts him and then dissolves because he retaliates.

He is simpler. He's a cheerful chap, not into goading or mean games. He adores her, looks up to her. He is also a genuinely kind boy - always shares his sweets with her when she's finished hers first, always lets her play his game, defers to her on so many things.

If that sounds like I favour him, I truly don't. I love them both and see the good in both of them, and more than anything just want them both to be happy.

I think she is jealous of him. He is catching up to her academically and seems to find it all easier than she did - but then as a 2nd child he's got her example to follow. She also says that the baby loves him more than her - obviously not true, it's just that he plays with the baby all the time, silly dances and peekaboo and Tom-fooling, so naturally the baby is always excited to see him.

We make sure that they both get 1-1 time with both parents. She gets special 'big girl' privileges. They both get plenty of realistic praise and positivity.

I find myself torn. If she is jealous and lacking in self confidence then I want to do everything in my power to build her up and help her see that she is loved, precious, funny, interesting, clever and appreciated and important.

But... But... She just seems to have this rotten streak in her that I don't understand where or why... Typical example: yesterday I took ds to a birthday party and dh took dd to the cinema. Ds had a lovely time, came home and shared his party bag with her. She also had a lovely time, tried to wangle more candy out of ds, taunted him that she had been to the cinema and had popcorn, then sat today in tears chomping through his candy complaining that he was the worst brother ever and she couldn't think of a single nice thing about him.

Is she a spoiled meanie, or an anxious child jealous of her easy going sibling?

I'd punish her every time she is mean or rude to him. I don't care who anyone is rude to, it is not acceptable.

Yes. That is a good place to start.

Sounds very familiar - fairly normal but absolutely infuriating to deal with. Have you tried reading anything like Siblings Without Rivalry for a few ideas on how to handle them?

Thank you for the book recommendation. I will order it.

There are no magic solutions in the book, I'm afraid, but it might give you a few ideas to try.

I second Siblings without Rivalry

It's hard when they're not getting on.

My observation, and this is not meant critically but more 'food for thought' is that your title is '7 and 5 year old not getting on' but what follows is you telling us how lovely your 5 year old is and how mean your 7 year old is.

I wonder if this has been building for a time and perhaps your DD senses your frustration with her ways?

If you punish her every time she's rude or mean, you're going to have to be absolutely hot on praising her every time she's nice or generous or kind.

I work constantly on the relationships between my 3 boys. I use overt praise for when they do anything nice for one another, pointing out what they did, and why it was kind. I get them to acknowledge each others' kindness with thanks, and acknowledge when they've hurt each other with apologies.
Whenever there's a chance to big one of them up to the others, I take it, and encourage each if them to see the good in the others.
If one is very hurt by another, I will take the one who hurt the others feelings and explain exactly what he did, and go over why that's hurtful to the other boy. Often, I have to point out just how much ds2 loves ds1, and why that makes what ds1 does all the more hurtful to ds2.
They still fight and argue, but they are learning to stand up for themselves by naming their feelings and telling each other how they'd like to be treated.

Thank you for the new posts.

No magic solutions expected but a good book might give me a new perspective and some fresh ideas.

It's a fair observation Lougle. I think I do get exasperated with her when its all drama of her own making, but I am also very keen on starting every day afresh. Everyone starts again with a clean slate every morning and I do try and set them up to succeed - this morning I had a snuggle with dd and we had a chat about making today a better day, and how we were going to do that. I am also fairly sure that I praise the good more than I criticise the bad. I don't do punishments. I do consequences and discussion. I will bear your thoughts in mind. An outsider opinion is often pretty shrewd.

Amistill I love your post. It has inspired me to be more involved. This morning I have been praising specifics and everyone is behaving really nicely. In fact dd has come to me and said "I get it mum - when I'm nice to him he copies me being nice back and everyone's nice!"

Could it be a simple personality clash - she's more of an introvert and needs time alone to recharge, whereas he's a socially relaxed extrovert who needs constant social stimulation? It might be that her problem with him isn't him per se, it's just the fact that there is a lively person constantly in her space and periphery when often she just needs time to herself, so regardless how 'nice' he is being, it's still just infuriating for her.

Would it be workable to allow her more time to herself without him, and vice versa? You mention that you took them both out separately yesterday and that's great.

Gosh I came on here to recommend Siblings without Rivalry too. Hope it helps.

I can see my brother and me in this. I had an older sister too.

My brother was proclaimed as a genius from a young age. Anything I did, he had to do. If I was better, well I was three years older so it was expected-he was still doing very well for his age, wasn't he? If he was catching up with me, well wasn't he brilliant and worth commenting on. Then he tended to start everything about a year after me, so he was younger when he started, so they'd then be excited that such a young child could do it.
So I did everything feeling I had to work at to keep ahead of him, even things, looking back, that I was much better than him. In fact something I achieved further in two years than he achieved in 9, it still felt it was always presented as him doing as well in a different way.

It got to the point that really everything he did irritated me because I felt threatened by him the entire time. It also was always expected that I would compromise because he was younger, even now it is. If I don't compromise, I am mean, if I do compromise it is expected.

I would say that you need to watch him threatening her. If she starts a club, even if he says he wants to do it, let it be her club. Give her times doing stuff with the baby. If the baby reacts more to him, if she's playing with the baby and he comes up she will feel sidelined and probably just go away feeling a failure. So let them have times together when they won't be interupted.

If you discuss with her, then do be careful. Discussions with my dm used to go along the lines of "he's younger than you. He looks up to you so much, and he's such a lovely boy...." and never any acknowledgement of how he could be irritating-which my parents admit now that he was often very deliberately irritating.
If they had acknowledged to me that he wasn't always this sweet little boy whose motives were blameless, then I would have found it much easier to deal with. As it was the discussions-even when the situation was caused by him, ended up with me feeling that I was inferior to him in their eyes at least.

Mackerel - yes it is personalty to an extent.

DeWe I really appreciate you posting that. I have read it through a number of times and will do so again. I am guilty of appealing to her better nature ("he's only little and he's just trying to impress you") and I will try to limit this in future. I do acknowledge how annoying she finds him, but I admit I find this tricky because she obviously needs to really sound off about how dreadful she finds him and I'm afraid that listening to a complete character assassination of my 5yo is not my idea of fun. It makes me uncomfortable. I'd hate him to walk in on her and me when she's talking about what an arse (she thinks) he is. But if not me then she doesn't have anyone to vent to. I will think about this some more.

By the way, I don't think he's blameless. He has plenty of faults and I see them all - but I am not challenged by them. Sometimes he is rude or naughty or tells untruths or hits someone or any other 5yr old nonsense and I deal with it confidently.

I am less confident parenting dd because she is older, more complex, and my pfb.

I suggest that your dd's bad behaviour to her brother may not really be about her brother and that this may be a route to get her feelings out or to blame for something else that is not right in her life.
I blamed my brother for taking my mum's attention from me, but the truth was that neither or us got much attention from her, especially not positive loving attention. I never felt that my mum was on my side in life because she thought I treated my brother badly. He was sweet to me most of the time although periodically flew into a rage and threw my beloved china ornaments etc out of the window and smashed them!

Not suggesting at all that this is the same in your family btw, just suggesting that it might really be about something other than her little brother although she probably doesn't know that herself.

I recommend the book Playful Parenting if you sense that there is a problem somewhere in your dd's life and can't identify it easily.

Also think the advice of amistillsexy is excellent!
I am sure you will be able to sort this out as you sound like a very caring and resourceful parent.

DeWes post is brilliant.

I read your example and what I see is a little girl who's come back into the family after a day out uncertain of her place in it all. What have you been doing? Has her younger brother been having a better time? has she missed out? Don't forget she's had to adjust to two new little beings in her short life. She's wielding what she has which is the power to upset everything and assure herself of a lot of attention, even if it's negative.

And stop thinking she's complex. She's a seven year old. I know she seems more difficult than your two younger kids but she's very little still.

I suggest trying to play down, limit attention on the bad and over praise anything good like an old ham on stage. And time alone with you both and special privs for being the oldest. I know you say you do this but make sure she recognises it and sees it's her special time.

My DS (13) - the oldest - does this even now. And ADORES his sister and is so protective and lovely with her too.

She has been struggling with friendships this term. The girl she thought was her best friend has been horrid to her and dd has struggled to know how to deal with it. Dd in turn has been unpleasant to another friend. It's all been a bit of a mess. I am sure it has affected everything else.

sorry about your china ornaments :(

Just seen your post & we were in a very similar position a few years back - same age gap & personalities. When they progressed to middle school, Dd became fiercely protective of Ds at school (although still moody with him at home).

Although any poor behaviour must be monitored carefully of course, I think it might just be sibling rivalry/normal!

My Dd adored Ds until he could walk/talk independently & was not her 'toy' any more. Now, although they still bicker & annoy each other at home, they respect each other & would stick up for each other over any outsiders. Many of their friends with siblings are similar - girls and boys are different animals so hang on in there..

I have an 8 Year old DD and I definitely think that there's something hormonal going on around that stage - not as in early puberty, but maybe a step towards growing up, and it affects them. I've noticed it in other girls that age too. Moody, irritable, super-sensitive and with a "You are not the boss of me!"-type attitude. Fall out with friends for the most ridiculous reasons.

I have older children, same age gap and also a boy/girl.

I read "Siblings without rivalry" and followed the basic premise of the book- the children are individuals and shouldn't be treated according to their place/role in the family. I used to parent them as a sibling unit rather than individuals and treating them as individuals has changed the way I parent and my relationship with them.

I stopped using phrases that my mum used to say like "She's only copying you because you're older and she wants to be like you." Which I didn't understand until I was older.

You've had some great advice like let your dd do clubs that her brother doesn't so she had things that she can be proud of.

I let my children sound off about each other. I tell them how I remember feeling that way about my siblings or say stuff like "I know he's made you angry but do you remember when he XXX" where xxx is something nice.