What can we do to change this?

[Pylon]

Dd (nearly 5) hasn't slept properly since around 12 months old. She is still up and down every evening until at least 9pm and we have all the consequential behavioural things to deal with that go hand in hand with an overtired child.

It has got to a point that dh and I are at breaking point with the cycle (him more than me). We have tried everything in the book for consistent periods, and nothing works. We make sure she is well fed, no screens before bed, consistent routine (but not rigid) where she has mum or dad time with a story and cuddles etc. but then a clear 'goodnight' she just won't go to sleep. We get no evening (both work full time) and we are both exhausted as a result, and less able to deal with her behaviour calmly.

He said today he wants to send her away to get this sorted as we have obviously failed . If it continues I am concerned it will seriously damage their relationship. Does anyone have any suggestions on things that might work? Please?

What time does she get up in the morning?

Maybe she just doesn't need that much sleep - our youngest only needs about 10 - 11 hours in 24 and he is only 2.

How is she at school? Does she get plenty of fresh air and exercise?

Other than that, I would stop putting her to bed so early. Let her read or do a jigsaw quietly while you have some dinner or relax with a glass of wine and then put her to bed when she is tired.

Good points above. Can she play in her room until she's tired?

Where on earth does your DH think he's going to send her away to!? What a strange idea.

She goes to bed at 7.30-8, so not particularly early?
We have tried earlier but it just makes the evenings even longer. She gets up (woken) at 7 on a week day (full time nursery, where she is fine) and wakes naturally around 8 on the weekend.
She gets loads of exercise and activity. I do wonder if things will change when she goes to school, but its not like its a recent thing, so it can't just be because of that.
We have tried letting her stay up later, but unless its 9.30/10 she won't just drop, so it makes the whole night taken up rather than just most of it.
Sorry for sounding negative.

Problem is, that she does need the sleep, as we have the overtired behaviour, though more at home than nursery where she is fine generally even when tired.
Think DH is just so exhausted he doesn't know what to do.

Thank you for your replies, it does help me just to work it through in my head.
I'm wondering whether spending time focused on her every evening might help, if it might be she just wants more of us and it has turned into a bit of a vicious cycle.

Sorry I sounded so harsh, but the idea of sending her away is a bit odd. Hope she didn't hear him say that.

To be honest, she doesn't sound that bad. My DD (nearly 4) often plays in her room until she's tired enough to sleep. We find that far better than spending our evening trying to get her to stay in bed. We have a baby too, who needs help to settle in the evenings, so can't spend too long after stories with DD.

Have you tried the usual suggestions like reward charts (with her helping to set the targets and choose the reward)?

What are they doing with her at nursery? How come she isn't at school if she is five already?

Does she get mental exercise? My DS1 doesn't sleep so well in the school holidays because he isn't being worn out by hard work every day.

I think you just have to accept that she isn't going to go to sleep earlier and try and work around it. If she is 5 then she's old enough to play quietly while you and DH get on with your evening.

And your DH sounds like an arsehole.

Judy, I'd have responded in the same way if I read it. So out of character that I was . Ali, not an arsehole, just desperate and can't see an end (believe me i gave it short shrift). She wasn't anywhere near.

She's 5 in Sept which is why she's not at school. You are prob right about mental stimulation.

I think it's because she does get tired that its become an issue for us because not only is there no evening, it's also difficult behaviours (not always) as a consequence of her tiredness. Even if she's shattered she still won't just drop. Her brothers are both pretty good, this has just been constant.

Will try a story cd, thanks. And letting her have time by herself in her room too. Will see if that works. Try to break the battle, which I'm sure she must feel too, which probably adds to it. Thanks all.

My ds is just 2 and I have Come to the conclusion some kids are just night owls. After a few months of daily night time battles And trying every technique in the book, i have given up trying to get him to bed at all until he tells me he is ready. Ever since then my house has been a much calmer place!!
There is now no set bedtime, no set wake up time and I let him nap whenever he likes. There is now never a fuss around either of those things and he will ask to go to bed and go straight to sleep. This is usually around 10 pm. He gets up around 9, sometimes later and Is a happy and well behaved little lad.
We both work too but I think that alot of the exhaustion you are feeling is related to the constant stress and battles. Instead of fretting about it, we know embrace our evenings with ds still around. We read books, watch movies and all sorts. I did wonder at the time if he just wanted to be with us rather than alone upstairs in bed, as we'd been at work all day too!
Good luck!

I think some dc just don't need as much sleep as others.

We had a similar problem with our dd (now 7).

Since about 18 months old she has never fallen asleep before 9pm, no matter what the routine. She wakes up at 7am and isn't really any more tired than other dc. She just doesn't seem to need that much sleep.

So she goes to bed later (so that she's not rattling around for hours getting bored). We take her up about 8.30pm. She has a story with one of us. Then she has either audio CDs (Enchanted Meditations for Kids is a good one). Or now that she can read, she is allowed to read on her own.

We explain that we now have jobs to do and we can't stay with her.

There were times when we felt so desperate - I feel your pain! But I think a lot of it was accepting that they won't sleep when you want them to, then make some rules and stick to them to at least keep them in their room until they do drop off.

Good luck! I hope it improves for you.

Thanks all.
Saturday started off a very bad day all round. Got better though and we were out til late so bedtime not an issue.

Last night we did bath, teeth, story, playing in her room at 8ish. I put on a cd when she went to bed around 8.45 (one of her brother's as don't have any specifically for her ATM, but will buy some). Though she didn't drop off until 9.30 (which I genuinely don't think she can cope with for more than a night or so), the evening was much calmer and we didn't feel stressed in the same way. I do think as she has two older brothers, sometimes we forget she is still only 4.

Fingers crossed we can find the balance between calm evenings and her getting enough sleep, appreciate this may take some time. It really helped to write all this down and get some sage advice