Ultra intelligent/ gifted 4yr old or a potential problem.... Autism?

[BlueBerry123]

Was spending some time with friends 4 year old son yesterday, he starts school in September.
We were having a discussion as she is worried that her son is not 'normal' and I must admit he doesn't come across as a normal 4yr old child but I don't know if this necessarily means it is a problem?
He is ultra and beyond expectation intelligent. He can draw you a map of Europe and name all the countries, he can name all the continents and the major rivers that run through them, he can give you a full and detailed run down of why a volcano forms including using language such as 'geographical analysis' and explain the geology of the rocks, plus many, many other things! etc
The problem is he seems to repeat this as if he is watching a film and once on a role you cannot stop him, I.e he will give you a word perfect 10 minute lecture on geographical plate activity based on something he watched on tv, he isn't great at changing this information but will not stop until he has told you everything, and then can repeat it word for word. If then questioned on what he has said he can pick out the right bits of info but will often launch into another completely unrelated 'talk' on something else - i.e. electricity.
His social skills aren't brilliant, he struggles to engage with his peers and has to be the leader. He isn't great at imaginative play but enjoys structured games i.e. chess etc.
Parents both intelligent individuals but would describe themselves as average.
Anyone had any experiences they can share?
P.S. Am sitting with little boys mum whilst writing this, so please don't think am doing it behind her back!

From the info you give, I might have similar suspicions re ASD, but this really is not the place for a diagnosis.

The real question is - how is he affected by this? Would a diagnosis improve anything?

Thanks - not really looking for diagnosis just others experiences. Mum is mainly looking for advice I suppose, this is the very start of the journey and main concern is about how he will cope socially at school. He is a very happy little boy who enjoys learning and showing/ telling others, he does prefer adult company and thrives off one to one attention. He has been known for bullying and difficult behaviour within his nursery/ pre-school when he hasn't coped with the interactions with other children or feels the learning is too easy.

Honestly don't know if a diagnosis would improve anything, does it give access to additional support in school if it is needed?

He sound's gifted to me and could quite possibly autistic (or something) but as long as he is happy and encouraged socially then I would think his intellectual ability, even if it is just a remarkable memory, will benefit him enormously. 4 is very young, especially for boys, and they can often seem pretty unusual. My own DS stood out at that age. In my experience, the inbalance between intellectual and social ability often levels out with age. If the parents' are worried though they should seek professional advice. Hth.

x-posted, schools are so well equipped for differences in DCs these days and I have come across many children like your friend's (my own DS included) and they have IEPs in place if necessary.

A diagnosis certainly helped my DS2 enormously (Dyspraxia and "Aspergic tendencies") because it came at a time he was very aware not only of the physical problems he had but also of the fact he just didn't click with his peers. The diagnosis made him see that none of it was his fault and it did open up support for him. However it doesn't sound like your boy is at that stage yet - I think see how he gets on at school, see what the experienced staff pick up and keep communicating with them.

I have to say my DS2 sounds very like the boy you describe, although as he's got older (he's now a teenager) he has understood that he does need to think about whether his captive audience is actually interested or not, and he's been able to understand that he doesn't instinctively read social cues like most people, so he needs to concentrate on that etc. I can say "X, you've talked for too long now" and he'll understand why.

A friend's son is like that. They got a diagnosis of autism and it's included in his IEP and I think it's helped him at school. He's a friendly enough child, like he'd take my son (who's 2 years younger) under his wing and teach him chess or play methodically with him. He comes up with the most amazing quotes/sayings.

I think the diagnosis isn't meant to be a 'label' but more of an explanation.

I think she has to see how he gets on. At 4 they are still very young, and I would have thought that if he had severe autistic tendencies they would have been flagged by now. Most 4 year olds don't have brilliant social skills . But, having said that, it's worth getting help earlier rather than later if he clearly needs support. He will probably change a lot between 4 and 6 and it will become clearer.

I don't think it would have been flagged if your friend's DS has ASD, necessarily. The general theme at this age is that if a child is relatively passive and content to 'do their own thing' then they are less likely to be noticed than if they are actively causing a problem. Sad but true.

As an example, my DD1 started preschool at 2.6 with no known SN. By 2.9 she had full 1:1, by 4.0 she was statemented and started Special School in Yr R. DD2 is very much more passive, so preschool didn't notice that she didn't mix with other children (despite every photo in the learning journal being of her on her own), her school saw her as 'independent and quirky' and she is still not even flagged (other than by us!) at 5.9, and is unlikely to be until she causes the school a problem, IMO.

It's impossible to say either way whether your friend's DS has ASD or not. It's certainly unusual to have such knowledge at this age, and particularly so if it is felt that the information he shares is 'scripted'.

How your friend deals with that is her choice. She can, for instance, take a look at the Special Needs section here, and see if anything rings a bell. A particularly interesting thread is the one about 'Language for Thinking', where several posters describe their children's thought process in conversations - it might either reassure your friend or seem strangely familiar.

The other choices are to discuss with the health visitor, gp or preschool her concerns, or do nothing and wait to see how school goes.

It's worth remembering that he could be highly intelligent and on the autistic spectrum... From a teacher's POV, I think a diagnosis is always helpful, particularly for children who are aware enough to know that they are different to their peers, but perhaps struggle to understand why.

Is he currently at nursery? Have they raised any concerns?

I would echo those advising caution about diagnosing on an Internet forum, but I think it would definitely be worth talking to his new school and explaining your concerns.

I vote both, too, but must be properly assessed.

www.potentialplusuk.org/parents.php?webid=252#.Uae01n3TVoM

Have a look at this

Yes, I agree that it could easily have been missed until now. My bfs son has aspergers and she battled with the school for ages as she thought there was an explanation behind his behaviour, the school just thought he was naughty.

Since being diagnosed the whole family have received help and he is much, much happier.

Why not suggest going to the GP, explain how she feels and ask for an assessment? If he does get a diagnosis it should help the school and him.

Someone mentioned asking your friend to join Mn and post on the special needs board, I think this is a good idea too.

A diagnosis does help:

• enables the mum to research things that might help
• enables the teacher to research things that night help
• allows the school to get help from ASD outreach team
• should stop the child being told off for things he can't help
• school should help with his social skills or other problems he has.

This child does sound like he will need help and understanding through school. A diagnosis will help with that.

My child has a diagnosis of Aspergers and I cannot think of a single bad thing that has occurred because of his diagnosis. We did however have a lot of problems at school before diagnosis.

I disagree that he will just get any help he needs. Doing well at school is not about intelligence (esp in the early years). It is about understanding what is expected of you & being able to function in a group. If he attends a nursery the mum might have some ideas on that.

He does have red flags IMO - & I would recommend a chat to the GP or HV if the mum is concerned. If the mum isn't keen on that then chatting on the special needs: children section here might help, or having a chat with the school SENCO.

I do know more than one child who although intelligent has been suspended/expelled from school by the age of 6 with undiagnosed AS. If you have concerns it is always best to try & get support in place before it all goes pear shaped. But forget the academics & have a think about how he will cope being expected to sit with a bunch of kids, stand with a bunch of kids, share pencils, keep quiet in assembly, cope with play sessions finishing at set times out of his control etc etc - if they're going to be tricky it's worth talking to the school.

Sounds very like my son wa at that age (his obsession was trains). Eve had numerous problems at school and its only now he's coming to the en of year 4 that he is being assessed for Aspergers. It's a weight off my mi d, we can put strategies in place and can legitimately go to his teachers and say he's not ndughry his brain just works differently and he needs x x and x in place.

At 4 he was cute, everyone loved him and his quirks. At 6 he's still cute but doesn't follow instructions and has meltdowns. At 9 he's a teachers nightmare do sooner rather than later I think.

And we've been told it could take up to two years for a prope diagnosis/support. A first referral alone takes ages b

Sounds like my DN who at the age of 4 can say the alphabet forwards AND backwards, recognise flags for most countries, knows all the chemical symbols from the periodic table, reads books my 7year old dd would struggle with (e.g. The Hobbit) and is obviously gifted at maths e.g. can take the number 2 and keep doubling it until he basically gets bored which is somewhere in high thousands (2,4,8,16,32,64,128 etc.)

His school sent him to see an Educational Psychologist who said that she didn't think there was any problem but that he was obviously exceptionally bright and bored at school and they should stretch him. They now give him work from years 2 and 3 and he's much happier