Is this 'normal' behaviour for a 4-year-old boy?

[happynappies]

My ds was four in February, and over the years we have struggled with first his reflux, then his amazing tantrums, and now what I can only term non-cooperation. He goes to pre-school five mornings a week, and no problems whatsoever have ever been reported - he is 'good as gold' and never so much as gets told off. Which is what has always made me think he can't have e.g. ADHD or a similar condition... because it couldn't turn on and off like a tap could it?

We have read extensively e.g. 'How to Speak so Kids will Listen', Raising Boys etc, and I have been on a HV-led parenting programme (triple p) so know all about being positive, rewarding positive behaviour etc. We have clear rules (e.g. no throwing, no hitting) and clear sanctions - one warning then time out on a chair at the bottom of the stairs, for 4 minutes.

This week, for example, he has taken water from an upstairs tap and poured it all over a bedroom floor, and unrolled an entire toilet roll. This kind of naughty/mischievious behaviour is perhaps 'normal' boy stuff? We try to deal with it without going overboard, but then it comes to things where he just can't stop himself. For example, while playing outside in the garden this afternoon with his sisters, they uncovered some bits of broken pot in the soil. They were being supervised by dh, but given freedom to dig around and get muddy. Ds gets broken pots and starts literally throwing them over the garden fence into nextdoor garden. Dd tells him not to, but he ignores her completely, and ignores advancing dh who is by now yelling 'STOP!!!'. Completely ignores.

Yesterday again in the garden he picked up a garden ornament and I instantly told him to put it down. Repeated. Repeated louder. And he threw it across the garden. He also runs ahead of me while I am pushing younger two in the buggy. We have clear rules - hold the buggy at all times, but he runs ahead despite me yelling to stop, which is a serious safety concern. I have resorted to clamping his hand to my side while he wails because I cannot let him run away near roads etc, or out of my sight.

He can hear when he is told to stop, and understands why he is on time out after these offences, but can offer no explanation as to why he can't stop when told to stop. Could this be some sort of disorder, or is this just a normal 4-year-old testing the boundaries? Any advice please?? Many thanks.

He sounds very much like my eldest but now he is approaching five I can see a huge difference in him, listening more and concentrating. We do all the same things as you. What we did notice helped was he likes structure and is very task orientated, therefore he was much calmer when we involve him in what we were doing rather than the other way round if you see what I mean. For instances he helps me hoover, load the washing machine, if we go shopping he is in charge of the list and goes of with dad down the aisles to get what's needed. If DH is building anything he makes a mini version for him to do etc, as for the running off when out he did that to and I'm like you he now has the vice grip from mum, just can't take the risk. Although I have driven past when he is out with his nursery walking hand in hand good as gold (grrrrrr).

Are you being as consistent as you think you are. One warning then punishment, but it sounds like with the garden instances there were a number of warnings. Consistency is the key and actually going through with the punishment.

Hmm, sounds a lot like my dd1, also 4. She is averse to doing as she is told, but like yours fine at nursery. I think he is normal, but more wilful/spirited than other children. Which led me to think that there is something that isn't clear to her, consistent enough etc about home. The following things help, separately, or in combination:

1. Lots of positive praise (using descriptive praise from Easier, Calmer, Happier Parenting). It sounds like he is getting an awful lot of negative attention, from his sisters as well as you. NB. I am not being judgy, just recognising something that I was doing too. If he gets a stronger reaction from you for doing naughty stuff than for being good, then he will keep doing naughty stuff...the book is good, actually. You don't say anything positive in your post about him!
2. I noticed that if I enlisted her cooperation, rather than telling her/ordering her, e.g. 'Dd, would you mind passing me x, that would be so helpful' it helped a lot. Confrontation actually makes her anxious and escalates the whole thing.
3. Absolute clarity about expectations, specifically spelled out.
4. Ignoring things. Not always possible. But with the pots he was looking for a reaction and got it. I would have sent him inside and ignored him.
5. Occasionally and strategically, bribery. We did this with dd and going up to dogs she didn't know. I promised her a chocolate button if she walked up and asked owner, instead of running and just touching the dog. And praised her to the skies. She only had three chocolate buttons and now usually remembers. I would probably do this with the buggy issue, tbh.
6. Outline expected behaviour before the event, not when the behaviour has occurred. This is a bit tedious, spelling it out. But ensure he has understood and that you get a response.

He is more attention seeking I'd say than anything else and will gradually grow out of it, but you don't want to let these behaviours become ingrained.

Sorry for long and bossy post, but I recognise your son. Enough sleep and running around also critical. HTH

This sounds like my dd when he was that age. Good at school, but dreadul at home. He DID end up with an adhd diagnosis (from a psychiatrist )and Ritalin for a while.

I would describe my dd as having poor impulse control, certainly, and this is part of it

Hmmmm, yes. Very normal 4 year old behaviour to push and test boundaries. I think you have to develop your "Victorian parent" side, as pp said. You need to follow through with behaviour, one warning, behaviour again, consequence. And be serious and cross about it- no need to shout, but they need to know that it won't be tolerated.

Apart from this make sure he gets enough attention as they play up for attention and will gain it in any way they can. So...give it in a positive situation, increase one to one time and give him your full attention when you do. Quality over quantity for this actually, 20 minutes of fantastic quality time really pays dividends.

Last point, and think I am repeating pp, make sure he is not tired. DD will turn into horror child when really tired (she's 4 too). She gets the same firm boundaries, but is a lot harder work!

Re the running. I would get this sorted. I had a rule they had to hold buggy until they could be trusted to stop, and we'd practice stopping. If they broke rule they were back to holding buggy. And I guess if I'd had a child that pushed these boundaries i would be onto time out when you get home, no T.V. for the day/take toy away, things like that.

If it's any consolation between 4 and 5 was the time both mine seem to push the boundaries the most. And both were impeccably behaved at nursery. Sometimes I wonder if the strain of being a model pupil and being in such a controlled (relatively) environment all day then means they are dastardly at home.

Thank you all for the interesting posts, have been looking through all the advice, and there is plenty here for me to be going on with. We had wondered if he was using certain behaviours as a way to gain attention - we have three other children, ages 6, 2 and 8 months, so recognise that getting our attention is always difficult. We struggle with this - try to have 1:1 time with each of them, and do things in different combinations etc. I always take ds to Tumble Tots for example, and he love chatting to him in the car on our way there, and singing etc with him, he's like a different person then. But trying to get him into the car - for an activity that he loves, and talks about constantly - you'd think he hated it. He definitely seems to struggle with going out (i.e. actually leaving the house - the whole getting shoes/coat etc and leaving the house), we very rarely manage it without tantrums and tears (his and mine!).

I think we are consistent and the consequences are enforced, but at times (e.g. when he was throwing the stuff over the fence) you've got to stop him first before you can actually get him to time out, and it is the wilful ignoring of clear instructions.

The Easier Calmer Happier Parenting sounds like a good book - I'll look into it, but we have read so many books that promise to help you and really don't make that much difference it gets very disheartening. I try so hard to be positive, and really do praise him when he is helping/cooperating/playing nicely etc. Friends who have seen the extremes of his behaviour are quite judgey about it, and think it is ADHD and he should be on ritalin, but I honestly don't know. When I first talked to a HV about it many moons ago she was against 'labelling' and all for working through the difficulties, so we've struggled on believing that boys are just boys (I have three girls and ds, so not very used to boys). I will certainly have a good read through all the constructive comments that have been made above and see if we can improve things for him, and I really do appreciate you taking the time to think about this for me. At times you lose sight of reality, and it feels like we are doing everything wrong. There are flashes of the sensitive soul that I know he is, under the bravado, but a lot of the time it is extremely well hidden and I struggle to know what to do for the best.

We used to get people saying that our DS had ADHD but in reality they don't really know him like we do. Agree with one of the other posters that he is a strong and wilful boy just like our DS. One of my friends answered one of the people suggesting that he had ADHD with ' you've just forgotten what its like to have a 4 yr old'. Which I think is very true in many of the cases of the people suggesting this. Ignore them, you know your own son. We have always found its all about tactics and finding out what works best for him. Nursery staff were really good at putting my mind at rest about ADHD as they have worked with lots of kids that do have it. I work really closely with them to understand how to deal with his behaviour, like your son he is great at nursery so encourage similar activities at home and use the same techniques for behaviour as them to ensure consistency. We are in a similar situation to yourself with two younger children ds2 age 2 and dd 9 months.

Hang on in there. He starts school soon, and as he gets towards 5 hopefully things will ease a bit. This happened with DS. I think it is brain development. Perhaps you are expecting him to behave a bit too much like the 6 year old? It's hard, you have a lot on your plate so go easy on yourself and him.

I used to do star charts for good behaviour during stressful times. Eg, coming home from nursery school was a trigger point so I made a star chart specially for coming home for nursery nicely. And I think I had another one for leaving nicely in the morning. Then when you have 5/10 stars (take your pick) you get a small treat.

Does he get lots of physical exercise?

My nearly 4 year old ds is going through something similar.
Routine, ensuring he's not hungry & tired as well as distraction are all a must in our household! Their brains are developing so rapidly that I think it's hard to cope hence the tantrums. My ds is bright too which can make it worse as he understands a lot & knows what he wants but can't always express his feelings & so gets frustrated. I've found the blatant ignoring of my instructions to "Stop" etc etc is enhanced when I make a big deal of it afterwards, so much so that he just does it again!! We are slowly getting there with this one.
Good luck.

I would say that it is not standard normal 4 yr old behaviour, but it is EXACTLY normal 4 yr old behaviour in your particular circumstances I.e. with the 2 yr old and baby. My funny intelligent fabulous DD1 was much the same at 4. DD2 was 2 and DS a few months old and DD1 was beyond awful. I found her almost impossible to cope with, I spent too much time in tears and DH and I were seriously concerned that there was something terribly wrong. Her tantrums were off the scale, her disobedience was legendary. People were quite judged about my DD1 too. I had reached a point of not really liking her and questioning either where I had gone wrong or what was wrong with her. I don't have a huge amount of advice. For me it was a wake up call of realising just how much I had become angry and resentful of her and realising that we both had to change. Back to basics. Huge amount of attention, programme of 1 on 1 time, a LOT of forbearance in the face of her appalling behaviour and lots of attention hugs and attitude change towards her. Now at 8 she is brilliant. Still high maintenance, but our relationship has totally changed. My DS is so like her in character and yet he at 4 is a dream. I really think that had DD1 been my youngest, she would have been just like him - happy, funny, bright, clever prone to tantrums but easily distracted from them and sometimes it makes me sad when I see how different things have been for him as my youngest compared to her experience. Life was just so hard when she was 4 I expected so much of her in the face of the 2 others being so little - and you have 6 yr old too. But no point looking back, things are great now.

Nelly - thank you for your post. I feel I spend so much of the time being impossibly positive about ds, which masks how I truly feel. I know someone pointed out that in my op I said nothing positive, but believe me, I could have said far far worse to reflect how I feel about what we are going through. Ds has a really good relationship with dh, and he is endlessly patient with him, but I have to be honest, dealing with him 24/7 while trying to manage the other three, I am usually at my wits end, and like you say - too much time in tears. I keep trying, but the behaviour is as you describe. Apalling. Soul-destroyingly awful. I can't understand at all what has gone wrong. We are reasonable people, our 6 year old is wilful, prone to tantrums, testing etc, but not on the same scale as ds. It is so hard to work through all this, when he can at a stroke spoil hours of effort from the eldest (e.g. spoiling her pictures, knocking over games, toys etc) and can and does 'terrorise' the 2-year-old. chasing her, scaring her... All of this daily grind stuff just wears you down completely so when it comes to the outright disobedience you have little patience left, and have nowhere to go when he just says no. He will say, for example, that he will pour his drink on the floor because you haven't got him x, y, z. We try to 'pick our battles' so there isn't confrontation at every turn, but he can't literally run the house, picking and choosing everything, tantrumming when he can't have what he wants etc. In those flashpoints when he threatens something, you say 'stop' and he goes ahead and does it anyway, and you are left with a huge mess of one kind or another to deal with, usually two or more crying children, and a disciplinary issue with him, who will be kicking and screaming and coming out with 'I want to cut your head off' or whatever else... Sometimes by the end of the day I have to force myself to kiss him goodnight and go through the motions with it all because how I feel about him right now is not good. I know its not right, but I don't know how to 'get back to basics'. I'll try to be more affectionate, and to believe it more myself - just hope there is light at the end of the tunnel like there was for you.

happynappies I totally get what you mean and it is so important to be able to vent on here than at your child. I suppose all I wanted to say was that I consciously tried to pick out things that dd1 had done well, however small and insignificant they seemed. Your DS knows that his bad behaviour is a way of controlling you, a way of him remaining in charge. I appreciate how difficult it must be when coping with this level of opposition with other children in the house. So on the negativity front, I've found I really had to work to find good things, but once I did, things really improved.

Thank you too rhetorician, I do understand what you mean - and am determined to try to focus on the positives. Just hope that things improve soon!

Sounds four to me.

Don't underestimate the development in Reception, is what I'd say. In the meantime, repeat after me: this too shall pass.

Horry

That's exactly what my mum says to me when getting stressed out about the kids. It works and is right.

I'm so pleased to see this post - I was about to write the same one about our 4 year old lovely DS who has turned monsterous since I got pregnant with DD who is now 6 weeks.

I know I'm supposed to be spending more time with him but at the moment I just don't want to :( How terrible is that to say, I feel so guilty.

But I know I need to put the effort into changing things too, as it seems to be all attention-driven. Tomorrow is a new day etc etc!

i began to get drawn in to an arguement or just repeating myself whilst being ignored. it got to the stage where i warned once, without explanation, the fact of the matter is I am parent, you are child, you listen , you do as you are told. to prevent what i think they saw as a triumph when ignoring or arguing, i picked them up, in silence and moved them to the naughty spot and were told simply "do not move until i say so". when told they could move, i re-iterated that simply they are to do as they are told. after a while, when no feeling of triumph was gained it calmed down. i saw it as confirming roles and boundaries, not addressing individual instances of behaviour. it became about fighting battles, not winning the war as such :)

Dear Happynappies, it's all been said, but know that I've been there and done that and I'll believe for both of us that there is indeed light at the end of the tunnel.

You're doing great!

Hey, I know this post is old but im going through this now and wondering if things changed and any advise. TIA x