Defiant headstrong challenging 4 year old - Help!

[chicaguapa]

DD is 4.5 yo and lately her behaviour has become extremely challenging at times! I subscribe to the ignore the bad behaviour and praise the good school of parenting and had really felt we were doing well. She is usually really well-behaved, has a strong sense of right and wrong and I have been really proud of her.
Lately she has been really challenging us and deliberately misbehaving to get us to deal out some form of punishment. This usually takes the form of confiscating a favourite toy although this isn't effective. As it seems like a battle for power on her part, we don't give in and fight it to its death as in that situation I really feel if we ignored the behaviour she'd be walking all over us. But then I feel we're playing into her hands as she has our attention. She still has tantrums which I know a small percentage of this age group still have and I honestly feel we don't give in to them.
I cannot think of anything that's happened recently to warrant such a change in behaviour. She's always had the tendancy to behave this way, but it's the frequency and the level of defiance that's increasing. The only thing I can think of is that she's soooo ready for school in September that maybe she's bored of nursery. Except that her behaviour there is fine as I've spoken to them about it.
My MIL noticed at the weekend that recently whenever DD is praised for doing something good she immediately does something naughty. We praise so automatically now that we don't notice we're doing it.
My main problem is what to do when challenged. She is always a step ahead and if we threaten to take away the favourite toy of the day, she'll give it to us so she can carry on misbehaving. If we threaten to turn off her light so her room is dark, she switches it off herself. I know it sounds daft but we really cannot find her achillies heel. The garage is full of confiscated toys. We've tried putting them in a clear box so she can see they've been taken but she just makes out they've gone on holiday and they'll be back soon. Then she switches her attention to another toy. And don't even mention star charts. She's so clued-up to them, there's no reward big (or small) enough to motivate her.
I'd love to hear your suggestions - please!

Time-out.

Discipline without attention. No conversation beyond 'you did xxxxx so you need to stay in here.'

After a minute per year of age, get her to apologise and then let it go. Repeat every single time that she defies you.

Standard Tania stuff really :)

Is she you only or eldest child?

She's my eldest. DS is 18mo.

When you watch programmes on telly their mistakes are sooo obvious. When you're at home you don't know if you've got into a bad cycle of behaviour.

Toddler Taming says the same as you. But after 30 mins of putting back in the bedroom (time out zone), DD is laughing and has turned it into a game. Then we feel we've fallen into the trap of giving her attention for bad behaviour. Even if we're not talking to her, we're still going back upstairs putting her back in the bedroom.

The absolute only thing that gets her to stay in her bedroom is fear. We have threatened on occasion to cut her toys' ear off which has worked. But I am not happy with this kind of parenting/control so resort to it when I'm at the end of my tether.

i know this isn't strictly recommended but when mine refused to stay in the "naughty corner" (which shouldn't be their bedroom, it should be somewhere more boring) I have put them out in the garden and shut the door (our garden was enclosed so they couldn't get out). so they had "time out" in the garden and didn't get any attention from us. it worked very well, in that they begged to be allowed to go in the indoor naughty corner rather than outdoors, and then they would stay put in the naughty corner.

you maybe do need to find something she minds missing. a trip out with friends or a party? or perhaps start giving the toys away to a charity shop, if just removing them temporarily doens't work.

we rarely have to resort to such things but i think it makes the milder punishments more effective if the child knows that you can really up the stakes if they don't cooperate with the time out and star chart sort of systems.

ps my 4.5 year old has regular tantrums still too. i don't think it's that rare. we don't give in but she still has them.

Sounds like time out is the only thing that will work. My DD was getting like this at that age, but she started school just after age 4. I think if she had been older when she started, she would have been a beastie.

I agree with you that it sounds like she is really ready for school now.

I would persevere with the naughty corner/step/room as it worked with my DD.

Last night I put her outside but put her on the front step (we live in a small cul-de-sac). Someone driving past saw her standing on the driveway in her pjs and stopped to ask if something was the matter. DD was stood there crying saying that I had put her outside! How bad a parent did I look?

Unfortunately in the evening all the noise in her bedroom wakes DS in the room next door. She lies on the floor kicking the door for ages - we ignore her but she goes on a long time till she stops. We never tell her to be quiet so as to not wake him as that would be like a red rag to a bull, but he obviously gets disturbed. She also does this in the middle of the night but then her time out is downstairs where no-one can hear her.

I guess we need to really perfect the Time Out strategy. We tell her to stay in there for 5 mins, which starts once she's quiet. We increase this by 1 minute for each time she comes out her room. She has a digital clock so can see the minutes ticking away. It can take up a whole evening. Like I said I feel we've walked into her plans by giving her attention for the behaviour. She doesn't seem to realise that she's still going to sleep crying so hasn't actually won anything.

yes neighbours can be a problem. dd2 (my 4.5 year old) had a major tantrum outside our house recently, she didn't want to walk for 10 minutes. we drew quite a crowd, especially people with fractious toddlers to distract. i stalked off into the distance and eventually, luckily, dd2 got up and followed.

still it's one way to meet the neighbours, we are new in our street and now they all know us

Similar situation here.

Everyone says to make sure we win the battles and she knows who's boss. It's sooo hard to do this without losing your temper and resorting to threaten to phone someone to come and take her away (which I did once!)

She has always been cheeky and challenged our authority. I don't expect to control her every move but this latest gradual change in behaviour has been hard to keep on top of. After a whole evening of battling I wonder if there would have been a quicker way to resolve it.

DH thinks she's iron deficient. Which she is as she won't eat anything. Do you think this might be the cause of the behaviour?

wouldn't iron deficiency cause anaemia - lethargy rather than tantrums?

dd2 eats reasonably well, but she's been headstrong since she was a baby. she does respond to the pasta jar reward system (10 pieces of pasta in jar = small treat). and to time out. but it doens't stop her tantrumming, it just means we have to keep dealing with it and not give in.

Eating nothing - and controlling what you have on your pasta etc. is another way she is misbehaving really, rather than her eating being the cause of her behaviour.

Don't warn her about consequences - just do it - she probably figures it's so worth it, twice as much attention - the warning and then the consequence.

I think your HV is talking out of her behind - how has the strategy she told you to do improved any of your lives?

My ds gets a little evil streak when he needs some time alone - he wants to get sent to his room. Does your daughter get time alone in her room without misbehaving?

chicaguapa, I am not sure I agree with everyone who says "make sure we win the battles and she knows who's boss".

Your dd is clearly strong-willed and highly intelligent to boot, to have worked her way around the "system". I think children go through stages of defiance (don't I know it!) and then get into a bit of a rut. Sometimes I feel it is counterproductive for you to then "up the ante" in punitive measures because it just makes them dig in their heels and enjoy the ruckus it causes.

I dunno, dividing transgressions into biggies and smallies and allowing some flexibility on the smallies. That way, she doesn't automatically elicit a punishment, if that is what she is after, or even a strong reaction. Plus a little humour to help defuse the tension.

And wait for this to pass.

Well, DS has been going through this phase since ooh, he was 3, and no sign of it stoppping yet at 4.5! But he will do time out and also responds to threats of withdrawing TV and stories at bedtime. What about putting a lock on the bedroom door? For a while, we put a rope on DS's door to keep him in (at night) a la Toddler Taming. We also have put DS in the garden. Also tried the complete ignore and not speaking trick (hard to do when they are doing something unspeakably bad). Also one school of thought on time out is that it is there for you to calm down more than a punishment - so even if they appear to enjoy it, at least it gives you a break!

The HV strategy was as follows:
Food is to be placed in front of DD. She then eats what she wants from it. She gets no food-related attention ie we're not allowed to tell her to eat up, start eating or even to try it. Just ignore any behaviour. When we've finished, she gets a 5-minute warning that the table is about to be cleared.

This HAS helped us sort out the "behaviour" at mealtimes. Before she used to end up face down on the floor screaming because she didn't want to eat whatever was given to her. Now she will sit quietly and will even tolerate seeing veg on her plate, even though she doesn't touch it and won't eat anything which has been touching it! But she doesn't always eat something and often goes to bed without having eaten anything at all.

What hasn't been sorted is the actual "eating" which I have been told will come later and that we can't actually force her to eat, we can only control the behaviour. To be honest I'm banking on school sorting out that issue as she'll be having school dinners and hopefully seeing her friends eat will help. The HV says it takes ages for children to become vitamin deficient and we only worry because we're "food aware".

DD is extremely willful, headstrong, clever and controlling. I suppose I should be glad this bout of dreadful behaviour is a phase, which I am sure it is.

I agree that upping the ante is counter-productive and she's got herself into a cycle of behaviour. Sometimes in calm moments she says she doesn't know why she does certain things. I think when your authority is so obviously being challenged it's easy to not want to be seen to be giving in, especially when it can lead to all sorts of issues. But I think we will sort out the big and small issues and start ignoring the challenges over small issues.

She has plenty of quiet time to play in her room. So it's not that she wants that. She clearly wants the attention and seems to be craving the bad attention. She gets so much positive attention that I think she's bored of it and wants to spice up her day some more.

My dd is also 4 chicaguapa, and her behaviour has become worse over the past few months since moving. I also do the time out with her and we are now on to reward charts, yet that does not seem to be working. It really can be so draining. She will start crying over the most mnor things, especially so when she is tired, and I am trying hard to keep my patience with her andd not shout, which can be difficult at the end of a long day. I do find myself telling her off and to behave so much, maybe is has stoppped getting through to her! I have also confiscated toys, her bike and tv. Leaves little activities for her to enjoy. We can't even to the supermarket without her having a wobbly over not being bought something. She will start crying and screaming when I tell her she cannot do something, and I put her in time out for this.
I am looking for any other ideas to help her thorugh this phase. DD is also very well behaved at nursery and very happy there.

The ignoring bad behaviour may work.

From what you have said - my latest theory is that she is hungry.

How does she eat at nursery?

That's a good theory and one we've thought of too. But there are days when she's eaten loads and she's still behaved badly. But maybe the hunger is building up! She doesn't eat at nursery. She stays twice a week for lunch club and takes sandwiches. She eats so slowly she only has time for a sandwich and a yogurt.