DS1 bullies and has now stolen all of DS2's pocket money- help please!

[TheVipperofVipp]

We have DS1 (nearly 8) and DS2 (nearly 5). We operate a points/rewards system where you get points for good behaviour, chores, good work at school etc, and if you're naughty you lose points and also sit on naughty step. The points get written up on the fridge. At the end of the week we count up the points and pay out pocket money based on the points, that can be saved or spent on treats. Seemed to be working really well.

But since Christmas, DS1 has been losing points every day because of horrible behaviour to his brother - kicking, hitting and trying to scare him whenever he thinks our back is turned. Consequently, even though he has earned some points for good things, he is losing so many he is on zero points. DS2 has lots of points. Tried to talk to DS1 about how if he is just good and nice to his brother he can start getting points again, but not much changing. DS1 then starts saying things like "well it doesn't matter because I have lots more money than DS2 in my piggy bank anyway" and last night I saw DS2 shaking his piggy bank at bedtime and looking confused. This morning it has come out that DS1 has STOLEN all of DS2's pocket money! I am very

I am worried about lots of things: Why has system stopped working with DS1 and what to do instead? How to stop general bullying and escalating bullying behaviour to his brother? How to adequately punish/make DS1 realise what he has done is really bad? How to come up with a system/punishment that doesn't set up more resentment (eg - if DS2 gets to play games/screentime and DS1 doesn't as part of punishment, then that will make Ds1 even nastier to DS2 I fear)? Have said to DS1 we will sit down with him to talk about this tonight as I think that will help but on the other hand I don't know what the way forward should be?

Any ideas would be really, really welcome.

For now I'd take DS1s piggy bank and give DS2 his money back and tell DS1 he'll have to earn his back before any further pocket money is earned.

Your poor little boy, I'm the youngest of 3 and my older sister was awful to me and I struggle to have a relationship with her now.

How's school going for DS1? When dd1 went through a phase of being mean to her sister and generally not nice to be around it turned out that she was being bullied at school. Not saying that is the case here but it might be worth looking into just in case. Dd1 was scared to tell us because she felt embarrassed.

To me it sounds like the system is rather regimented. I know lots of people swear by reward systems but they're quite flawed as many kids feel demoralized by the loss of points.

I was told never to take away reward pebbles from a jar for instance as once the child has earned a pebble (in this case a point) it defeats the entire purpose to take it away when they don't manage to be good all of the time...the point is given as a reward so that the child may feel pride in a job well done....take it away and you take away the good feeling too.

If you take the reward away, the child feels resentful and knows that it can't be good ALL of the time...so why bother? The point has no value because it will be eventually taken away.

Your older son has worked this out and is feeling rebellious...he's trying to assert himself against the system.

If I were you I would tell him that as he is older, you are now removing him from the point system and instead you are giving him a job...because he's bright enough to understand that when you put effort in, you get something out of it.

I would make the job a simple one....such as making his bed or tidying the toys...try to find something you know he's reliable at.

When he is mean to his brother or otherwise badly behaved, remove a toy or treat...his laptop or whatever he values...but not for long...until he's made amends...then return it.

Thanks so much - this is already v useful.

Yes we will be giving DS2 his money back and I really, really want them to have a healthy relationship (sometimes they play lovely together) so I want to sort this out asap. The thought of DS1 being bullied had also crossed my mind but he has talked very enthusiastically about school and friends there since he started back so I don't think that's it.

MrsMushroom I think you have hit the nail on the head with what you've said. We didn't used to take away points and only started doing it very recently out of frustration as DS1's behaviour escalated, but actually that approach has almost certainly worsened things. It's funny how sometimes the obvious strikes when you talk/write about this with others isn't it? I also think using different approaches with them could/would really help to stop the direct competition element which is probably helping fuel the resentment of DS1 to DS2. Will give some thought to jobs/rewards etc for DS1.

Thanks very much.

I did it myself with my DDs (8 and 5) and their reward jar...they got a pebble for good deeds etc and I began removing them when they were naughty....someone on here told me not to and why.

I agree that removing the competition element is a good idea...at 8 he'll believe himself above competing with a 5 year old...even if he is losing!

Hi vipper.
I agree with Mrsmushroom that you shouldnt take the reward away.

The reason for this is that it has been earned for earlier good behaviour and so it is seen by the child as unfair if they are badly behaved laterand lose the reward, this then undermines the whole system as they dont see the point in earning rewards if they are not going to get to keep them.

Hope that make sense, I have seen a system where the child moves a car along a track or a rocket up into space etc a bit like a board game.

If you made tracks slightly differently for each Ds hopefully they wont compare quite so much, they could chose their theme to make them individual.

I am another one who was bullied by an older sibling and you are right to want to stop it.

good luck

Well you were all spot on about the losing points thing. Had a big chat with DS1 last night. He was very, very upset about losing points and absolutely didn't see the point of even trying when he had lost all his. And then looked across at DS2's massive points total and felt even angrier and took it all out on DS2, culminating in the money stealing to try and redress the balance. We have explained to him that how he has been behaving and what he has done is absolutely unacceptable and he needs to think about how he is making DS2 feel. He was very upset. Talked about how as he is older, he needs to have more responsibility, for jobs and for looking out for his younger brother, he said he was very sorry and would try his best. We promised that we would not take rewards away once he earns them but that bad behaviour would still be punished with naughty step, less screentime and earlier bedtime depending on what it was.

Well this morning has been something else - he came bounding downstairs at 7.30am immaculately and fully dressed asking if there were any jobs he could do! And then has been extra nice to his brother - helping him build a lego car before school . Early days I know and there will be lots more future sibling challenges I'm sure but it is does feel like maybe we have fixed something fundamental in the removing points bit and so THANK YOU for some excellent advice!

Oh so nice that he's happy again! And so nice that he helped little DS build his car.xx

Siblings Without Rivalry by Faber & Mazlish is a great book which might help with some of the issues.

Thats great news vipper glad we were able to help

Ditch your points system. Children behave well when they feel loved and appreciated by their parents, not because of some points payment system.