Sabotage

[yawningmonster]

OK so we are in a really bad behaviour spiral with ds. It is school holidays and I thought ok I will try the whole fill the emotional bank approach. I have been setting the timer for 20minutes, ds gets my attention and we do whatever game or activity he wants. DD can join in but it is essentially directed by DS. Then it is DD's turn and then I get 20minutes to do bits and bobs around the house. I have been doing this since Monday and most days we have had at least 3 rotations in amongst food prep and other activities such as doing crafts with the neighbours, reading stories, going to park etc. So the kids are getting 1 hour of play exactly as they would like, + family orientated activities. I have been trying to ignore as much behaviour as possible and really focusing on positive behaviour when I see it as well as doing a bit of a speil at bedtime about the things I noticed that I was really happy/ pleased/ proud of.

The problem is during DD's time and mine, DS seems to try to sabotage it. Today as an example, DD wanted to do puzzles as part of her playing with me time. DS was welcome to be involved but kept running off with puzzle pieces, breaking the puzzle etc. I kept having to remove him from the situation and reset the timer. Then when it was his turn he kept having a real meltdown that he wasn't allowed to play during her time so she shouldn't be able to play during his. He did it during my time as well...I would go and hang the washing up and he would come running in saying he had spilled something or he would hurt or tease his sister, or he would complain long and loud about being hungry or thirsty (I did put regular feeding times in between everything and always made sure they had something before I tried to do anything.

I want to try to stay as positive as possible but it is driving me quietly insane. I tried talking to him about it today and he got really upset and said he was just trying to join in.

He is dev delayed by about 2 years, he has ASD and is 8 years old. DD is 3.

Any ideas

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one more try

Clutching at straws as this is something we struggle with (2 boys with ASD). Does your DS have a special interest that you can set him off doing when you spend time with DD? My DSs would happily spend all day every day playing on the Wii or computer and that (although not necessarily a great solution) would be something that would keep them occupied whilst I spent time with the other one, because they see using the Wii/computer as a treat.

thanks for answering littlemissgreen. Wii and tv are definately ticket winners in this house but we generally have very tight controls on them as if he has too much screen time we wear it in the behaviour department, he would also struggle to turn it off. I will rack my brains and try to think of something else "special" he might be able to do while it is not his turn for playing. Or maybe a social story about joining in in a supportive way rather than a destructive way might work...will keep pondering

I am in awe of your patience and determination. Don't lose hope.

it is the fruits of necessity bear...we needed to do something drastic in managing our current behaviour and because we were in a really negative spiral the only way to go was emphasis on the positive

I think the answer is simply: he is not capable of doing something by himself at the moment, and you need to involve him positively when you are doing something with dd, rather than turn it into dd special time or ds special time.

I think this is triggering something off him...he doesn't like being told it is dd special time...He is reacting this way because he is anxious.

Even if you think he should be able to "get" that this is a fair arrangement - maybe the whole idea of you officially parcelling out time is making him anxious? Maybe because it is a new plan?

We've had this over homework with dts, when one was "officially" doing homework with a parent the other would try and sabotage. We went through a stage of letting everyone do homework at once on the kitchen table, and to some extent the problem self sorted - but before that the idea of this special homework time made dd extraordinarily jealous of whichever sibling was involved, even if she had been getting special homework time herself Now she just doesn't notice, it is part of family life.

In the past I've noticed that when I tell dd to go and play she WONT play, and the boys are even worse. Directing them to amuse themselves is a bit of a disaster frankly! If they play it seems to be an organic thing which happens when they are very relaxed and not because I want get on with something! [And they do play/ amuse themselves, just not on my terms...]

I think all you can do is keep trying, in a very low key way to do fun activities with them both, without expecting too much in these early weeks, and hopefully they will get used to participating together ...and you might even find that ds starts playing with dd when you weren't expecting it (he probably does already?)

I think a timer is NOT a good idea for an anxious child. Has anyone started doing something fun with you and said Right I have exactly 20 mins to devote to you, and then I need to do something else...it would be a bit offputting perhaps.

removing and resetting the timer is basically a variation of Timeout isn't it? In the sense that you are pushing him away for an allotted time, rather than filling the emotional bank as How To Talk So Kids Listen suggests (they do not approve of Time Out, as I think I once discussed on another thread)

swanthing I get what you are saying and I will think further on it.
My immediate response is that at no point is he pushed away at all he is always involved during the times when it isn't "directed" by him it just isn't exactly what he wants to do if that makes sense. I also very rarely use a timer with him as it does in some circumstances stress him but on the other hand he likes to know when our time is up and that it is fair if that makes sense. I have tried (during term time). I haven't actually read How to Talk so not sure what that says but we don't use time out. We do use cool down time which I believe is different for when ds is in meltdown, it is not a punishment it is an opportunity to regain control of himself in a safe place. I have tried to do the fun activities with both but it really hasn't been working at all. Over the last week however (since I have being doing above) we have had no meltdowns whereas we had been in a 1-2 massive meltdowns a day cycle. So I think it is helping just was wondering how to manage the sabotage.

The only time he is not allowed to play with us at the moment is if he is purposely making her game miserable or impossible to play. He is never expected to play on his own it is just a different person gets to choose what the focus of the play is if that makes sense or during my time, I get food ready or put washing out etc. I could probably save most of this time until they are in bed though so maybe it is too much to expect for me to have time to do things...will think further about this too.

I will rethink the timer aspect and re evaluate whether he is getting enough positives during the rest of the time...

I understand what you are saying.

You feel that he is trying to control everything. Of course that is not sustainable, even a saint can't put up with that. I suppose I was just making the point that you could spend more time disciplining him for sabotaging/trying to teach him to behave, than you could spend just playing with him, chatting with him. I wonder whether it is all a bit too intense for him: he's got used to this high level interaction either positive or negative; and he doesn't know how to turn down the dial, because he's still a bit anxious.

Do read that How To Talk book. It does help a lot. It takes a while to take it all in, and it doesn't recommend dipping in and out.

I've certainly been where you are now, especially with dd, and it would have helped if I'd read that blooming book!!! [didn't know about it then

It certainly doesn't recommend giving endless quality time to children, and supervising their every action, more just steering them in right direction, then letting the wind fill their sails of its own accord.

And of course you should have time to prepare dinner and do washing!!! But he should be helping in some form; if he wants to interrupt, let him help you!

And you should have time to read a book or anything else you enjoy...that's the point...he should be able to see that you are doing something enjoyable and imitate you to some extent eventually, starting by doing the same thing, then eventually doing his favourite thing alongside...looking at a book, playing with his toys, listening to music.

I will try to get the book and thanks for your thoughts will try to sort out a better way of doing it. I just thought his behaviour seems lately to be geared towards getting attention and maybe this was a way of ensuring he got it in a positive way.

Interestingly enough it is 11.20 on a Saturday so family day here and so far I have not done the individual time and the morning has been an unmitigated disaster. DS hurt his foot on the swing and had a mahoosive explosive meltdown and is still insisting his foot is broken and that we have to help him but he won't go anywhere to get it checked. I am not forcing the checking btw as I truly believe it is not that bad. He got it caught under the jigger swing and it has a small dent just under his ankle, no blood, no swelling, no scrap but yes a mark.
I am sure it hurts but am skeptical that it hurts quite as much as the neighbours surely think. DH has gone out as he can't handle the noise, dd is crying because she is frightened and Ds is inconsolable and very loudly demanding everything from bandaging to frozen peas....hmmm if harmony is restored I think I will try the 20 minutes again as at least I didn't get the tantrums over the last few days...will try that for a bit longer and maybe try to get the book