might need to be in special needs but yet again near breaking point

[yawningmonster]

DS is locked (yes call social services if you feel the need) in his room screaming to be let out after a massive tantrum over seeing the boys next door. They have been playing almost everyday and their mum and I said no today for a break. DS had a massive tantrum and then asked if he could talk over the fence to them, I said no he couldn't as our rule is that he doesn't get things when he has a tantrum. DS escalated the tantrum and is now in bedroom.
I am out of ideas. I am out of energy. I am out of anything.
We do try to spend lots and lots of positive time with him, we try to give one to one, we try to reward and encourage positive behavior, etc, etc, etc.
I am so sick of trying so hard to get it right and then it just doesn't make any difference I must still be doing it wrong because the behavior is relentless.
I think ds must feel really unloved and unliked because why else would this happen. I try very hard to establish that he is very loved and liked but it is no good.

We are very, very consistent but it just never, never, never gets better.

Oh dear it sounds like you are totally overwhelmed and exhausted. Don't know what to suggest other than to take a moment to try to calm down as much as you can. Is your DS special needs? If so what?

You haven't said why you think this should be in Special Needs. There must be a reason why you think this is not just normal tantruming.

Would you like to expand a bit?

Is he causing damage in the bedroom?

Does he lose control when he goes into these tantrums?

What is your biggest concern?

Trying not to sound critical here. Just need more info really.

Aspergers (and dyspraxia and dyslexia so has a pretty hard time)

Hi yawning, he is having a meltdown, he has lost control of his emotions and he isnt able to think straight.

He is not wondering if you love him, he is probably not even think about you. He is only thinking about what he wanted to do what he wants.

Definitely do not try to reason with him when he is like this.

That is part of ASD, when in a meltdown, dc's are not rational.

Someone on the SNchildrens board said recently, try to see a melt down as a panic attack not as a temper tantrum. It makes them easier to understand and easier to live with. I have tried that with Dd3 and it does seem to make me think that she is not being deliberately horrid, she has lost it.

When he calms down, go and give him a hug and maybe set up a social story about why he cant visit his friends every single day. He will not understand the social implications of knocking on their door whenever he wants to.

Good luck, I hope he burns himself out soon.

Has playing with these friends become a part of his daily routine which you are now disrupting? If so can you put together a timetable of days they can play together and days they can't so he has a predictable structure?

He doesn't feel unloved. He is finding it hard to understand and control his emotions. he is lashing out at you because he knows you love him and won't reject him.

You are doing the right things. You could add to it by talking to him about his emotions as he is experiencing them. Reflect them back at him to help him recognise them and then give him ways to express them more appropriately.

CAMHS told me that my very intelligent 7 year old with AS had a two year old's level of understanding when it came to her own emotions and I had to keep describing them to help her learn about them. We're still doing it two years later but it is helping.

you are doing completely the right thing by being firm with him and not giving in. It is the harder course but it is the right one.
As an aside, while his attitude to these friendships may be a little obsessive, it is wonderful that he has them - somany children in his position don't.
Do you think it might help, when he has calmed down, to set a timetable for when he can see them (as suggested above) coupled with a written list of the behaviours you expect to see from him before that can happen? I find with my DS writing down the rules for him can be very helpful.

I don't think you were doing the right thing when you stopped him talking over the fence to them. I think he realised you weren't going to allow him to play, and accepted it, but he came up with a compromise solution.

I suspect that he might have been happy with that small glimpse of them.

I think you were being a bit unfair to be expect him to be flexible over the playing, and then abide by a set of rules which were inflexible. Would it have done any harm to look over the fence? Sometimes when you are parenting a difficult child you cling onto rules as the only salvation, but I think in the end you want to teach him flexible thinking, don't you?

I'm sorry you have had such a horrible time; if it is any consolation, it is not because he thinks you are horrible parent; as another poster said it is just because he WANTED to do that thing. I've learnt at my cost that if I want to deflect ASD ds2 from anything, I have to come up with something to deflect and distract him, or there will be a vacuum = tantrum.

I have a friend whose son is NT and behaves like this a lot. He is 12. She is veers between feeling it is low self esteem (just like your feeling that your son must feel unloved) and feeling he is just utterly badly behaved. I think the answer lies somewhere between the two. He is very much loved, yet he feels frustrated. So your solution likes somewhere there...how do you stop him feeling frustrated? I think rewards and attention don't necessarily stop the rot, pasta in a jar and sticker charts aren't what every child thrives on. Maybe just being very calm and being very flexible and taking him out of himself (laughing, fantasy, game playing) rather than insisting on rules and problems to be solved and all the things you don't want him to do might be another line of action. In short thinking of things from his level.
I feel you are worrying all the time about being the good parent because you are so worn down by his behaviour. Maybe it is time to try a new tack where you get more pleasure out of his company.
This has worked for me with my ASD child. That is the only reason I suggest it. I don't want to appear patronising.

I can totally empathise. Trying to modify the behaviour of a child with Asperger's is like [your pointless frustration simile of choice].

You may need to start choosing your battles. Pick the most unacceptable behaviour and just work on that one first.

Also, I realise this sounds harsh but find out what works most effectively as the 'carrot' (DS2 will do anything for computer time) and if necessary, the metaphorical 'stick' (DS2 hates social stories, post mortems of what was unacceptable about his behaviour, and having to write letters of apology).

thanks for the replys,
Swanthing....he was not allowed to talk over the fence as I have tried that in the past and he will then ask them over and the whole spiral starts again, it is all or nothing with him, if he comes up with a compromise or we do then it will all go pear shaped as it still isn't what he originally wanted to do if that makes sense.
I agree about the carrot and the stick but even the stuff that means the most to him doesn't change the beaviour. Can you explain more about the approac you use swanthing, do you mean sort of distraction as while he is easily distracted from anyone elses agenda he is absolutely committed to his own agenda and not distractable at all.

I will try the timetable of friendships (part of why I am trying to limit it is that the boys next door are not actually seeking his company but he is seeking theirs so they may well be a bit over him if you know what I mean.

We have just gone down to the park as an effort to set things back on a better track and harmony is for now restored.
(with much I probably don't deserve to go to the park, just go without me, I'm not allowed to have any fun today.....etc. I did just state that he his tantrum is over and we are getting on with our day and he can do all the things we are doing as a family, his only limit is playing with the boys, have reiterated that we love him and want him with us and that we want to share nice experiences with him but this is what makes me wonder if he actually is really feeling unloved and wanted?)

I will try the written rules idea as well.....just so tired of always needing to get it exactly right and do the right thing at the right time and feeling that I am on eggshells as the wrong thing will set ds off.

"just so tired of always needing to get it exactly right and do the right thing at the right time and feeling that I am on eggshells as the wrong thing will set ds off."

That part is just so relentless isn't it? It feels like I'm a lawyer sometimes, trying to close all the loopholes and cater for every eventuality before committing to anything, yet also knowing that this commitment is essential for life to be manageable.

I just use the distraction methods recommended in How To Talk So Kids Will Listen by Faber and Mazlich. I did use them before I read the book but in a hit and miss sort of way, without quite realising I was doing it. The book has many sample convos with children who are about to erupt or have erupted and how to try and stop escalation, just through words not actions.

Ds2 is very set in his likes and dislikes, and can do that whole, nobody likes me, I never get to do x, or sobbing his heart out because you have switched off the tv and said NO. So we do say NO all the time, but this is tempered with him thinking we are playful and jokey in other ways. I suppose he clowns a lot with us and this takes the heat out of some arguments, and stops him getting fixated. He's quite empathetic for an ASD child, but he is much more empathetic when he relaxes. We have fantastical conversations about things, we do a lot of chatting. I think this is a backdrop to why he finds it easier to calm down when he is getting obsessive or upset. He knows there is a way out, and a different way of being.

I recommend that book. She says the methods don't just work with NT children but also SN children to a suprising degree when the behaviourist methods don't.

ASD children can have a very strong sense of being "wronged". I think that is the other reason why you have to have quite a light touch, even if you are using a lot of routines and rules. They don't really understand your reasons for imposing rules, even when they accept them.

I suppose the Faber book would say that you would have to let him talk about the fact he wanted to play with the other children next door, acknowledge it was hard not playing with them, then try to get him interested in something else to fill the vacuum, not a bribe, just more a chance to think of something else you might have fun doing, or he might have fun doing. Ds2 has been screaming about telly, and seemingly inconsolable. Then if I have the energy or enthusiasm I could suggest cooking something utilitarian (like supper) and getting him involved and actually, he would be able to move on from the tantrum over the telly and enjoy the alternative activity. The thing is, you need to have the strength to want to do cooking with your screaming child, and the energy to carry it through. That's why mostly people end up arguing, or disciplining, because it feels like less work. Also they worry that when you pay a child attention when they are badly behaved it is going to escalate. Not necessarily.

Very tired today!!!

I missed out the if Ds2 has been screaming...Today he has not been screaming, but other members of the household have instead, as we have just been to a pantomime (lovely but takes it out of you!)

"The thing is, you need to have the strength to want to do cooking with your screaming child, and the energy to carry it through. That's why mostly people end up arguing, or disciplining, because it feels like less work."

That is spot on! Sometimes I just can't be bothered to do the distracting, redirecting and stupidly decide that whichever DD it is should just suck it up because that's life. Those are the days when it all goes badly wrong. It does take more energy in the end if you don't make the effort to handle things better in the first place. It's just that some days it's really hard to be the one trying to fix everything all the time.