Don't know how to deal with DD (4)

[ImPeppaPigOink]

Hi

DD is 4 years old.

For the past few months her behavior is getting much worse.

DD bites, spits and doesn't listen to us at all.

we can't cope with her anymore.

We have tried time out in the past but she just screams so we were told to scrap the idea, we have tried behavior charts they don't bother her at all.

We have had help from HV in the past but nothing seems to work.

The behavior change happened when I found out I was pregnant.

I just don't know what to do. :( :(

This must be very difficult for you. I know that a homeopathic medicine could help if you can have an assessment of her behaviour by a qualified homeopath. It might cost £50-75. Can you do that? What is her reaction when you try to speak to her about the new baby?

Is she like this to other children?

You say that this behaviour started a few months ago but you also say you have had help from HV 'in the past'.

Sometimes we think behaviours started recently when in fact there has always been an underlying problem or difference.

Is she in any sort of childcare / nursery and have they offered any views?

If I were you and the HV has not helped, I would make an appointment with the GP and ask for a referral to the community paediatrician.

NB homeopathic medicines are just water.

Yes, homeopathic medicines are either just water or sugar pills, and I can't imagine that feeding her sugar pills will help with her behaviour.

Do you reward positive behaviour? Sometimes it can be easy to slide into just telling-off for misbehaviour. Try to 'catch her being good' and praise her for that. She may be feeling generally underappreciated and as though she's going to be pushed out by the baby.

Thanks for your replies.

moonlightglitter I will look into homeopathic medicine. I've never heard of it. When MIL takes DD out today I will have a look.
When we talk about the baby DD is excited, she is always asking questions about the baby, she also sings and talks to my tummy.

mummyneedingahug DD is very shy around other children, there is one or two that she talks about and plays with at Nursery the others she runs away from them. DD has not been back to Nursery since this started as it started at the beginning of the summer holidays.

combinearvester We have always had some sort of problem with DD from weaning as she would refuse to eat or drink, then as she got older the tantrums started and we never knew how to deal with them so we got the HV involved as when we were putting her on time out, DD used to scream "get off me, your hurting me, No Mummy/daddy" when we were nowhere near her so we referred ourselves in-case neighbors did. I will speak to my GP as he has seen her behavior last week.

ZuleikaD We try to reward the good behavior as that is what the HV told us to do. The bad behavior is taking over more and more.
The Nursery DD is at hasn't mentioned her behavior. DD's worst behavior is shown at home but other people are starting to see it more.

If you decide to use a homeopathic medicine after your research but the cost or referral is a factor then I may be able to help. If you want to let me know more information (such as below) then I can suggest a medicine that you very likely can pick up at Boots or your nearest health food store. Is she very afraid of dogs and talks to you about scary images? or does she have nightmares regularly (and talks in sleep)? When she is ill does she get a high fever quickly but is typically a very healthy, robust child? Have you noticed that she is particularly sensitive to noise or light? Does she tear things? or pulls her own hair or others? Does she hide away from you? I understand completely if you feel homeopathy is not the route for you.

I'd check with GP or HV for underlying issues. Then choose one approach and stick to it. Good behaviour equals good behaviour (praise) bad behaviour is calmly and consistently dealt with. (Time out or whatever). ALWAYS follow through. ALWAYS have a consequence. Never back down. If you do something, she protests and you leave it then she will keep doing the same.
Who told you to scrap time out?
Behaviour chart may not be immediate enough.

Sorry to hijack
moonlight I was reading this as I have similar problems with DS aged 4 and was intrigued by your post as DS is also petrified of dogs, has nightmares, talks in his sleep, can be sensitive to noise, doesn't pull hair but nips (a lot!).

Would be interested in trying a homeopathic remedy if you can recommend.

I don't know how much this will help but when DS 3and a half I found out I was pregnant. A combination of things went wrong between us - without going in to the details it was just all very negative. I asked for advice here and someone suggested that I got a sticker chart for him but the goal was for me to give him say ten stickers a day. So it was all about me training myself to look for and reward good behaviour. It really helped me to focus on the positive which is truly difficult when their behaviour sucks. It definitely helped us through that phase and back into a more pleasant, positive relationship.

HI

Thank you for the replies. I lost my thread as it was not on "threads I'm watching.

I think I have answered everyone.

moonlightglitter The cost is a bit much. We are on full benefits aswell as DLA and DP gets Carers Allowance for me through my illness and vision problems.

DD is petrified of dogs, she is that scared she stands and shakes and either wets herself or just sob :( We don't know why she is scared of dogs. DD always talks about the scary dogs, that is all she talks about (I don't think she knows about "monsters" etc), DD has only had 1 nightmare in her little life, she does talk in her sleep a lot.

When DD is ill (not that often) she does get a temperature very quickly. She has had febrile seizures when she was younger.

DD hates bright light and wont go outside when it is sunny, I also have problems with bright lights so the house is quite dark so DD tends to stay in most of the summer, we have bought her sunglasses and hats to try and help her but she still prefers to stay in.

DD doesn't pull her hair but the nursery told us when we picked her up on Tuesday that she has started pulling an other little girls hair, when DD was asked why DD replied "Because XXXX is not here anymore" (Her best friend who DD has played with since she was 16weeks old has moved up the next year in a different school as the little girl was born in August and DD born 6days later in September)

DD doesn't hide from me. She does hide from DP but she knows through DP's back he can't get down on the floor.

Wolfiefan I spoke with the GP and as it was a locum who doesn't know us he said if I go back when my GP is back in a few weeks.

The HV told us to scrap time out through how distressed DD was becoming on it.

TingTongsSista Some of the time, I do think it will be easier if DD was placed elsewhere where someone who could cope with her. I then hate myself for thinking like that as DD is my DD and I should cope with her. DD can be such a loving little girl when she wants to be.
I also feel guilty as I have already had a child removed (past relationship and my child was removed from the hospital at the birth then placed with paternal grandparents)

We have also realised when DD is at her worst it is when we have to go to the hospital to get checked out (I see a Neurosurgeon, neuro, ophthalmologist, neuro Opath, and now the MW and Obstetrician so the appointments can come to every 2-3weeks) DP asked DD why she behaves the way she does when we have to go to hospital and DD just changes the subject. But when we tell her before the appointment DD always asks "Will you be coming home again?" I can't say definitely yes or no to her as we don't know what the Dr's will want.

This is what happened last week with DD.
Last week we went to the hospital to see Neurosurgeon and DD was fine on the train.
When we got to the hospital DD saw a Guide Dog so she she started to cry a bit. DP told DD "It's OK the dog is over there" (The dog was quite a way away from us) DD then started to cry louder so DP picked DD up to get inside quicker. After we got inside and away from the dog DD calmed down and started smiling again.
We then went to the ward where the surgeon told us.
We had a bit of a wait then the Surgeon came and took us in the room. He spoke to DD (like he always does), he then came over to me and asked me about how I've been.
DD behavior had changed and she was smacking DP. Dp was telling DD to calm down. DD never listened, then she started to spit at DP. I never heard what DP was saying to DD as the Surgeon had to examine me and look in my eyes and do a few other tests.
The Surgeon hurried up and then we went outside the room while we were waiting for a form to be done.
DD then started to bite DP, DP started to tell her to stop. DD wouldn't.
DD never calmed down until we left the hospital

Another time was yesterday.
DD woke up in a bad mood as her soft toy /(her comforter who she has had since birth) had fell down the side of the bed. Dp found the toy and they went downstairs while I had my painkillers (I need to have them before I get out of bed before the pain kicks in and I cant move through the pain)
DP did DD and himself a hot/warm drink same routine for years now (DD doesn't like her breakfast straight away).
I came down and we all had our hot drinks.
DP then told DD to pick her breakfast (same as every day) DD picked crumpets.
DP made breakfast and they sat down to eat it.
DD then started shouting "I never wanted crumpets, horrible daddy, I hate you, I like mummy not you"
I told DD enough and eat your crumpet.
DD threw her crumpets on the floor so DP cleared them away. As DP was picking them up DD bit him on the ear.
DP put DD on the sofa until he finished wiping the butter up. I sat on the other sofa and DD came over and started to hit my stomach saying "I don't like baby"
DP asked her what was a matter. DD ran upstairs and came down a little bit later and asked to play outside.

I can be afraid of DD and her temper.

I don't know if she is angry/frustrated she wont tell us how she is feeling. We try to talk to her and tell her she can tell us how she is feeling but she never does. She has never seen anything like that at home. DP and I don't do anything like that.
When DP and I "argue" we don't raise our voices let alone our hands (we were both brought up with violence and know how scared I was so I don't want my daughter to feel the way I did when my parents argued. )

MIL also says DD is intelligent and she is expressing that.

poachedeggs Thank you for your reply. I also find it hard to find positive things about DD at the moment. I am pleased this phase has passed :)

I will try the sticker chart again. To see if it helps. DD apparently likes getting stickers in her lunch book at Nursery (if they eat their lunch the children get a sticker when the book is full which is about 10stickers, the children take it home)

Thank you for all of the replies. I am more scared of telling DD off as I have had one baby removed and I have seen my Brother and his wife lose their children, I'm scared incase they remove DD. I know it is unreasonable to think like that as SS are not even involved anymore as they are pleased how far I have come..

Seems quite a few sensory issues there, have you thought about getting her assessed for aspergers? that could explain some of the behavoir

What is aspergers?

DD has never been assessed for anything. The HV said it was typical terrible 2's. which has gotten worse now.

Aspergers is a type of autism where in some ways the child functions well (speech, toilet training can be fine) but needs extra support in others. I'm in no way an expert though so will not attempt to elaborate further.

It can be hard to pick up in very young children because they all show some traits.

I definitely agree get an assessment.

I agree. Ask for a referral to a paediatrician and for a multi-disciplinary assessment. She def sounds as if she has some sensory issues - light, her comforter, possible oral with he food thing.

With sensory issues, a child will just feel totally overloaded, frustrated and angry. Sensory issues can occur just on their own, or as part of something else. An occupational therapist can work with you to find techniques to reduce the overload and your dd would be a lot calmer.

Temper tantrums can also occur because of low self esteem. Some children are just more sensitive that others, and need a lot more reassurance. dt1 carried on with tantrums until about a year ago (he is 7) until we realised that it was low self esteem causing them. With lots of reassurance and tellign him that he can cope with things he finally stopped them.

She and you both desperately need some help and support x

i don't have anything to add to the suggestions, but it does sound as if there are lots of things going on (she is clearly worried about you wrt to hospital visits) and as if you need some support to help you through. I hope you get the support you need - good luck :)

You stopped using timeout because your child screamed a lot - in other words you allowed her to control the punishment. She didn't like timeout - that's why she screamed a lot. Don't give in. Be firm and be consistent. Time out is an effective punishment but you need to keep going with it and not give up because your child doesn't like it.

From what you have written it seems she plays up when you are getting attention or no one is focusing directly on her. Have you tried ignoring her behaviour at all.

It sounds like there is no negative consequences for bad behaviour for your DD, nor are there any positive consequences for if she does behave. What discipline methods do you use? She needs to know what is acceptable and what will happen if she does something that is unacceptable.

What did the HV suggest you did instead of timeouts? I'm surprised that they said to stop just because she screamed, that's pretty typical to be honest. The child is feeling cross and is expressing themselves. It s a rate chid that gets told not to do something they want to do and just smiles happily and goes along with it.

In the hospital situation, to be honest I wouldn't have taken her at all. A lot of children will misbehave in a situation, all the adults are stressed, sounds like a stressful journey and then she is expected to behave perfectly in the appointment. Failing that, I would get a bribe (like a small toy or magazine) and tell her that if she sits quietly for ten minutes she can have it. As soon as she started getting worked up I would have taken her out of the room (or DH in this situation) to a quiet corridor and sat her down, ignoring her until she calmed down.

In the crumpets situation, I would have told her that if she didn't want the crumpets she should say so and she could get down. If she threw them on the floor I would tell her that that was not kind and made her pick them up and clean up the mess.

Hitting your stomach is completely unacceptable, but it sounds like you just let it go - why?

With regards to talking about feelings, it is hard for children to express complex emotions. I find it helpful to make an educated guess and ask if that is the problem. So for example, if DS tried to snatch a toy from another child then has a screaming tantrum when stopped I would say " I can see you are feeling really upset DS. Are you feeling sad because you want to play with the toy? Are you feeling cross because X has it and wont give it to you? Shall we ask X if you can have a turn in a minute when she has finished?" This is from a brilliant book called how to talk so children will listen and how to listen so children will talk -highly recommend it.

You need to come up with some strategies and be consistent.

With the most sympathetic of intentions may I also suggest that you look to how your own past may be affecting your current situation. You and your DP have both had the horrific experience of being raised in violent homes. You are afraid of violence and this is affecting how you see your own child's behaviour. You are scared of her. At some level you may be seeing in her childish tantrums (which biting, throwing food, screaming in timeout etc are) the violent abuse you suffered in the past. You don't need to be afraid of your child. You can help her learn self control and better behaviour. Don't back down from her when she is behaving badly. You don't have to try to placate her to end her violent behaviour and she won't stop loving you because she went on the naughty step.

I doubt anyone ever comes to terms with losing a child, as you have done. Has this affected your confidence and ability to parent? Do you fear, deep down, that you may lose DD too - that you have no 'right' to parent. Speak to your GP about counselling or support groups. I admire you and your DP so much - you have come out of a horrible situation determined to break the cycle and raise your child with love and in a peaceful home. And you can do it. Her behaviour does not mean that you can't succeed. Don't doubt yourself.

You are coping with so much stress - pregnancy, financial worried, ill health and a child who is pushing all your buttons and acting out big time. Your daughter will be picking up on all the worries and tensions, espeically if you keep taking her to your hospital appointments. At 4 years old all she knows is mummy is ill, mummy has to see the Dr. and it must be something serious because all her bad behaviour (biting your DP etc) didn't bring you running. Sounds like she was probably tired and overloaded and overwhelmed to me. Keep her away from the hospital especially whilst you are pregnant so she doesn't associate the baby with you being ill etc.

I really feel for you, what you are going through sounds tough, firstly I would look at the actions and consequences. If there are none she will carry on doing as she pleases, small children want to please you - but if there is not much change in your behaviour between when her behaviour is good or bad - there is no incentive. You need to set some rules and have a consequence ready, when a rule is broken (and you need to be consistent) - follow through. Problem is, it will get worse before it gets better. You can also add a sticker chart in - but tell her the things that she can get a sticker for! Keep it simple.
The second thing I would look at is her diet. A huge amount of behavioural issues are caused by diet - and by that I don't mean sweets (although it obviously includes them!) Processed foods - dairy/wheat in some children, all sorts of things can set off these things - food plays an incredibly important part in the way our brain works.
Personally I would find a good GP and ask to be referred for help with these things, that's what the system is there for - does your DD go to nursery? How is she there?

Oh, honey. That sounds like a really, really rough time, especially factoring in pregnancy hormones!

I had a hard time with my DS when he was four. It was just a shit-awful time, behavior wise.

The thing that helped the most was a system where he had three tickets on the refrigerator, and we concentrated on one behavior at a time (I think we started with not doing as he was told). Every time he did the behavior he was given a warning and if he did not stop he lost a ticket. If he lost all the tickets he was sent to his room and only allowed out to eat and go to the bathroom. It sounds tough, I know, but it only had to happen once. And of course lots and lots and lots of praise for any good behavior at first, however small.

I do agree that it might be good to get her assessed for things first, to rule anything out. If she does have sensory issues, etc, someone should help you figure out strategies to deal with them.

Best of luck, OP.