5yr old DS 'I'm a horrible boy I want to kill myself'

[puppie]

Hello wise and sympathetic (hopefully) ladies. It has been a while since I frequented mumsnet but need some advice/thoughts on something desperately as it is eating me up inside.

Apologies in advance if there are mistakes or the message is somewhat incoherent but I am typing this hurriedly before I go into a meeting as I just can't rest until I get some other viewpoints.

I will give a bit of backstory so this post makes a bit more sense. I have a DS due to turn 5 in September. He will also be starting school in Sept. Unfortunately we did not get in to any of the three choices/closest schools to us so we have found an alternative in another borough 10 miles away. The school is lovely and we are happy with it but it means quite a few lifestyle changes for us.

DS has had to change CMs and leave the CM he has been with since a baby and leave all his friends. His new CM is lovely and seems very able. DS has been there for a couple of weeks now and yesterday when I went to pick him up she said she needed to tell me a few things (listed below). DS is the youngest there.

1. He had asked a 2-3 times to have his cereal reheated and she thought he was running her around a bit.

1. He sulked over two games played as his turn was last and he thought was not going to get a go.

1. One of her children (older than DC) was going to have a playdate on Friday and this would give him a break from my DC (I felt winded at that comment and dont really understand).

1. He threw his coat at her and laughed and she found this unacceptable. (DC version is that he was trying to throw his coat to land over his satchel and it landed on her and he thought it was funny).

1. There were a couple of other things that i can't remember now!

I felt like it was a bit of a barrage as this is an adjustment period for me as much as it is for DS.

Now for the piece de resistance.....as I was driving him home and telling him off for the behaviour, he started crying and said 'I am a horrible boy, I want to kill myself!' over and over again. I was completely shocked and burst into tears! He genuinely sounded heartbroken and I didn't even know he understood the concept!

Can a 5 year old really feel that bad about themselves to say such a shocking thing? My husband and I always praise him (perhaps overly so). I cannot understand where that came from.

Hubby and I agree that perhaps we should enforce boundaries a bit more and be stricter but I am concerned that if he is feeling that bad about himself, that being strict with him now is the wrong move? He has so much to deal with at the moment. New CM, starting school, leaving preschool, leaving old friends and CM.

How do I know how much to enforce while still supporting himt through this time?

why was his turn last in two games? I know that sounds like a nothing thing but he's only 5 and if the CMs DC are older then why is your DS going last?

Yes, he probably was running her round a bit, but if she's looking after him, that's for her to deal with surely. She's new to him and he will be testing her a bit. I don't know what she expected you to do about that.

I think the CM is oversharing information that is just normal adjustment stuff.
TBH I don't think I would have told him of for any of it. She should have sorted it there and then, as although it's 'discipline' stuff, none of it is punishable in my book, once you've spoken about it, it's done.

I reckon I would go for asking him what happens with the CM and getting him to think about his behaviour himself without you making a judgement, so he can evaluate it himself.

He has a lot of stuff to deal with, probably worried about school as well, so I would stick with being supportive rather than disciplinarian.

The kill myself stuff is shocking but I think I would downplay my shocked reaction or he will say that stuff more for effect. He could have heard it anywhere, or he could have 'made it up' since my 5YO does say stuff about 'killing' so it's not much of a step to turn that on himself, IYSWIM, without actually thinking about what the words mean.

Sometimes they do say stuff like that and, yes, it needs ignoring otherwise you will get loads more of it because they know it gets a reaction. At five they don't understand what it means.

His behaviour at the child minder's sounds to me like settling in grumbles because unless I am very soft and undisciplined I don't think what he did was that that horrendous. (I was a teacher and now work with young children and would interpret his behaviour as that).

I am most concerned about him saying that he is a horrible boy and that he wants to kill himself. Who has told him that? Children don't just come out with sentiments like that unless they have been exposed to them.

Has your son just started saying these things since starting at the new child minder? Does he behave in a naughty way at home? My son is three and he has played up a bit every time he reaches new miles stones and frustrations - we remain consistent and routines at home stay the same so that he has one part of his life that stays the same.

I am sorry that I don't have any answers but if your son has started acting differently and acting out of character something is happening that he feels is wrong but can't communicate it to you.

I hope that everything settles for you all soon but don't be quick assume that it is your parenting skills.

Best wishes

Sian

Nagoo I don't know why his turn was last. Like most children he will whinge a bit if he has to wait too long for a turn. It is so frustrating not knowing exactly what happened.

My feelings on this are what you said. That it should have been managed and not every little thing highlighted to me. It is difficult as parent because I also want to make sure that I am not excusing my sons bad behaviour but I did not feel that what he did was over and above what most 5 year olds do (as Acepuppets said).

Acepuppets I sincerely hope no one has told him he is a 'horrible' boy. I hope he is repeating something he has seen on television. He has said 'My brain is full of nonsense' before starting wtihthe new childminder when DH and I reiterating that he needs to listen more. What I am struggling with here is knowing whether we should completely back off and run the risk of him becoming difficult to deal with or to be firmer with him and then I worry that he starts saying things like that. Although I must stress that we never ever say things like that to him.

He pushes the boundaries at home sometimes and we always verbally tell him that the behaviour is unacceptable and to try and listen more. His previous childminder never gave me a report like the one I got yesterday. When there were occassional tantrums she just dealt with them.

Some children can be very dramatic and unless you have other reason to think that he is really depressed or having serious emotional problems, I would not get too hung up on his exact words. Instead, you could try to help him express himself more moderately eg 'I am a horrible boy and I want to kill myself' you could respond - 'I'm listening... and I think you mean that you are feeling sad and frustrated because you were told off'. If this is not what he means, he will quickly correct you (I got this tip from 'how to talk so kids will listen, and listen so kids will talk' which is an excellent book!). This tactic works well my DS2, who is 4, and very prone to expressing himself dramatically (eg 'DS1 hates me' so I say 'I think you mean that DS1 is angry that you smashed his lego to pieces').

The childminder is a completely different matter. If you have to stick with her, I would turn it round and ask her what her strategies are for managing this sort of boundary testing and difficulty settling in. It is totally out of order for her to discuss another DC's attitude to your son (which might simply be a bit of jealousy of a new child - having a new child is an adjustment for all of them). If you keep turning things round (i.e. diplomatically saying 'so what are you going to do about it then?') she may eventually get the message that when he is in her care, she deals with minor incidents.

No real advice I'm afraid just offering support, sounds very tough.

Your CM sounds like she was nitpicking. His behavior doesn't sound bad at all to me, other than the coat-throwing incident, which may just have been a misunderstanding anyway.

If you just listed off your CM's comments to your son as she did to you, then I'm not surprised he was upset, although what he said was extreme. He must have felt that the CM had nothing good to say about him and didn't like him. What he said was odd - maybe something he heard soemwhere? - but probably a reflection of the stress he's feeling about change, school starting etc. Maybe just reassure him that you love him very much and he's a lovely boy, not horrible at all?

I was a CM and nanny for years and would never have a approached things that way! Start off with good stuff, mention your concerns, end with good stuff, is what I always did.

And yes, children do sometimes say things like that but it must be awful to hear.

Personally I wouldn't ignore comments like that. I've had similar from my son at that age and I felt the best I could do was make sure his emotional tank was as full as possible so I would always give him a cuddle and talk about how much I love him. Then in bed that night I'd tell him some other story like how we felt the day he was born, I always do this with my children if they have had a big upset... At night I tell them something like their birth story and how excited we were to see them, how happy we are to have them etc. I can see in their faces how full and happy it makes them. This at least counters that feeling your son has of being a bit rubbish. Also don't forget he doesn't really mean exactly what he says... He probably just doesn't have the words to say mum I feel really crap and I've had a bad day!

Really feel for you. Any chance you could speak to the old CM ( never had a CM do not sure if this would be ok) but it seems it might be interesting to check if she agrees it's just settling in issues etc. but I'm sure you would already know if his behaviour was anything other than normal five yr old stuff (which it sounds like to me).

As for the kill myself comments, that sound very distressing. But my experience of my ds1 first starting to interact with older children is that he did start to hear all about killing (in games, computer games etc) and so he started to use the words. I imagine your son didn't really mean it the way you heard it, but I agree that you should use it as an excuse to give him some special time. I find my son also loves it when I tell him his birth story, or tell him some other story of when I've noticed something about him that makes me proud and he tends to react best if I do this at night after his book. And after doing this a couple of times he started to really open up to me at those times. A good chat about how he finds the new CM and how he feels about the changes might reassure you.

GlitterPinkRubberDucky Thank you I need the support : )

NapaCab I feel the same way, that it was not that bad. Unfortunately in the car on the way home I did list off the things she had said and he was probably overwhelmed by it as I was. I do think what he said was odd, hence my shock.

The CM situation is a difficult one at the moment. When I went to pick him up yesterday she was saying how slow he is at eating and how he won't get dressed or undressed in front of anyone and that this will be a problem when he starts school. While I think she probably thinks she is trying to help by pointing these things out....I already know them being his mum and I feel she should not be saying all these things in front of him every time. They also went pond dipping yesterday and she said that he and another boy had gotten overzealous with splashing! If she is going to say things like this every day (even though each is minor) I feel he is going to get a complex. She is good in many other ways though which is why we have not told her that it is not working out for us as we are still trying to acertain if this is going to be a problem or not.

CheerfulYank I agree with you. She has told us she thinks he is a very bright boy and all the people she has been with have said the same so that is one positive she has said.

jaynebxl and ktef, I think that is such a sweet idea and will be telling him his birth story tonight! I also know kids talk about 'killing' but it was the way he associated him being a 'horrible boy' and 'I want to kill myself' together. To me this indicates that he feels worthless. If he had used the two phrases in unrelated separate sentences I wouldn't be so concerned.

You poor thing, this sounds really upsetting.
My son only went to one childminder so I don't have much experience of how CMs work, but your new CM's approach does sound a bit odd - I agree that it's important for CMs to share information about what's been going on during the day, but to go into this level of (critical) detail about what sounds like very normal settling-in behaviour seems a bit unnecessary. Could you perhaps ask her to tell you, in her professional opinion, how much of what she wants to bring to your attention is just your son's normal response to dealing with a new and unsettling environment? That might remind her that she is supposed to be dealing with him in a professional way.
Re your son saying he's horrible and wants to kill himself, I agree with the posters who say that he doesn't know what killing himself means and that he is probably just trying to say that he has had a crap day and feels bad, but I know how awful it makes you feel. My son (who's eight now) went through a phase of saying that he was really stupid and hated himself a couple of years ago - it didn't happen very often but I found it hugely upsetting, especially as it was clearly a response to stress. I like the way jaynebxl describes her technique of "filling the emotional tanks", and this is how I responded to my son's distress - I would completely stop whatever else I was trying to do (even if it was very inconvenient!) and sit down, hold him very close and tell him how very much I love him and how he is the absolute opposite of stupid and horrible - even if that's how he feels at the moment.
Good luck to you and your dear little boy, and I hope he feels better very soon.

puppie - it sounds to me as though your ds and the CM aren't a good match. (Actually, the CM sounds awful, no good with young children and unsympathetic... but that's just my opinion). In fact, all the comments about giving her children a break and your ds being slow would just send out huge warning signals to me that any child she looks after has to fit in around her children and that she has no qualms whatsoever about making that glaringly obvious. I would not tolerate my child being put in an environment where he was obviously the spare part who got under everyone's feet.

It does sound as if it's not working out with the childminder. The "give him a break" comment was enough (what a thing to say). The thing is, you can ask her how she plans to deal with these things but you can't really change her. There's the worry that she would stop telling you about things and just deal with them, but in ways you wouldn't approve of.

I also think you're quite right to lean towards being supportive at the moment. Maybe go easy on the praise, though. As children get older they can become sensitive to too much of it and start to think "do they really think I need praise? Maybe I do" i.e. it can make them feel less confident. The emotional tank-filling sounds great.

Hi just wanted to share here as my DS who has just turned 6 went through a stage of saying he wished he was dead. I did a quick search (either mumsnet talk or google, can't remember) and to my surprise, found that this was quite a common concern for parents of 6 year old boys.

Apparently, it might be the combination of a hormone surge (so lots of big feelings of frustration, aggression etc) with a greater understanding of life/death and therefore knowing about the impact of saying 'I want to kill myself'. Your DS sounds very bright so maybe he is going through this phase a little earlier than most?

How I dealt with it was to not let him see how his comments upset me and just say something like 'Well I am very glad you are alive, you're very special' etc and then talk about something else. He soon stopped saying it. I think your ideas of lots of positive reinforcement and telling him his birth story are perfect. Also don't forget that although the CM is a big influence on him now, once he starts school it will be his teacher and new classmates who he spends more time with.

I'm interested to hear that other posters like to tell their children their birth stories - my son loves to hear about his birth. He particularly likes the list of who cuddled him when he was new, and in what order - mummy, daddy, granny, auntie, cousin - and how excited everybody was to meet him!

I really think that childminder sounds a bit awful, I think f it was at all possible I would getmy son out of that situation.

I just told my son his birth story thanks to this thread! He totally loved it and it snapped him right out of a grumpy mood.

I must stress that I am no expert but if he has never referred to himself in a detrimental way 'bad boy' etc before and he doesn't hear it from you I would be inclined to be concerned about the language the child minder (or someone at the childminder's) is using. If she refers to him as bad or naughty then he is at an age when he will believe it.
I used to be a child minder and frankly the stuff she is mentioning to you is minor stuff for her to deal with.
My gut feeling is that it might be worth keeping an eye out for an alternative cm.

I´d get rid of the CM. Sounds like he is being ostracized, and if the CM doesnt like him, her kids will be doing the same. self esteem is a nightmare to fix at any age - tke him out. poor wee boy.

Solola I'm really glad to hear that. I feel like it just reminds them of how much they are loved and were wanted (missing out any unnecessary bits obviously ... I've never told my daughter that my womb split as she was working her way out, for example!).