Nothing seems to work with horribly behaved DS.

[MegumiEto]

Really fed up. I'm a SAHM with 2 DSes, eldest just turned 4 and youngest 11mths.

DS1 is awful. He won't do anything I ask him to do, ever, no matter if it's something he wants to do or not. He won't eat at mealtimes, won't go to sleep, won't get dressed, won't walk sensibly along the street, is horrible to other kids, throwing, hitting, laying across the steps of a slide. He hits and kicks me and his dad when things aren't going his way. He delights in being defiant and seems to be utterly incapable of reasoning out consequences to his actions.

This has been going on for about a year and in all that time, we've made no progress with his behaviour. We use time outs in his bedroom, I am always firm when I say no, I always follow through on my threats, I am consistent with punishments, and my DH and I are a united front. His behaviour and the calmness of my household have not improved at all in all that time.

I have been trying to do something every day in the summer holiday to make sure he has enough attention and exercise (although, frankly, taking him out where there are other kids and mums is a real strain). But this morning, I have had enough.

Yesterday afternoon I took him down to the park and he had a tantrum because I told him to stop kicking the bark chippings about. After a couple of warnings I threatened him with going home if he wouldn't stop kicking them. He wouldn't, so we walked all the way home with him screaming his head off. He'd really been looking forward to the park and we'd waited all day for the rain to stop so we could try out a new football. He hit and kicked me on the way home so I confiscated the football. It's now in the shed with a load of other toys he has loved and lost every time he is violent.

This morning, I thought we'd try again with the park. He was very excited, but won't get dressed. Won't have a wash, won't clean his teeth. I really can't be arsed to load DS2 in the pushchair, pack a bag, walk 20 mins to get there after having to wrestle him out of pyjamas and into each item of clothing, chase him round the house and force him into shoes and hat while he's being horrible. So I've said no park again.

Am I wrong? Is this normal motherhood? I am seriously miserable. Every day is such a struggle and I just want to be proud of him again. Hate myself for saying that. He's starting school in September and I'm worried he's going to have a tough time. He was ok at preschool but not great.

Do you have a hv or someone you can talk to? I had similar problems with my dd when she turned 4, didn't know what to do, but I spoke to my hv and she got a community children's nurse to come and see me and she gave me some great advice and help. It made me feel terrible that I actually needed help but it was so worth it, she made me realise that a lot of parents go through the same thing. Stuff like time out, being consistent, having clear rules and boundaries. It sounds obvious but if you really stick at it I found it helped, and dd was a nightmare at times believe me! Also just 'tell them off' for the big things (that can cause injury or damage to property etc) and ignore as much of the minor things as you can, lots of praise for good behaviour. Hope this helps even a little bit!

Stop nit picking. He is 4! He is not going to be well behaved all the time, lower your expectations of him. Took home because he was kicking wood chippings at the park? Poor kid

Thank you babycarmen, I think I will have to ask the hv for some advice. I think I am afraid of the stigma or feeling like I can't handle it.

Olympic OBVIOUSLY I don't expect him to be well behaved at all times, but nor do i think that hitting, kicking and being horrible to other kids is nit-picking. I'm sure you'd be the first to complain if it was your kid getting wood chippings kicked at him in the park.

It sounds really tough! Being consistent, united and sticking to No means No is doing the right thing, but as you say you do that already.

Do you acknowledge when he is good though? If he is quiet / gentle / eats nicely etc etc do you praise him and give him love for that?

Are there things which tend to set him off that you could avoid as much as possible?

It sounds like it could coincide with becoming a brother, if it has been happening for a year and baby is 11mo. Is he involved in his sibling, allowed to help, allowed to make choices for baby (like what to wear) praised for being a good brother?

He no doubt has to wait at times while baby is seen to - do you make a point of making baby wait for him sometimes (or feel he is being put first, obviously not neglect baby but if baby fusses while you are reading story can you make baby wait until story finished making a point of saying so to ds and baby)?

Yesterday afternoon I took him down to the park and he had a tantrum because I told him to stop kicking the bark chippings about. After a couple of warnings I threatened him with going home if he wouldn't stop kicking them.

I'm sure you'd be the first to complain if it was your kid getting wood chippings kicked at him in the park.

Right, firstly, it does not say in your op, that your ds was kicking wood chippings at other people does it?

Also I agree with JennerOSity, that his behavior is linked with becoming a brother.

He is getting attention and that is the whole point of his behavior, it doesn't matter to him that it's negative attention.

He has got into a war with you. He doesn't get dressed/washed, but it means he will get attention from you.
He goes to the park, he lets off some steam, he gets frogmarched home, he takes his anger out on you, can you blame him?

To him, you are the baddy, little perfect brother has come along, stole his limelight, and he gets told off a lot by you, so he does it more, to get attention, then when you punish him the anger builds.

Like i said before, lower your expectations of him, he's had a lot to deal with becoming a big brother, it's a massive change.

Instead of telling him off for minor things, bite your tongue and give him a hug and a kiss instead

'Instead of telling him off for minor things, bite your tongue and give him a hug and a kiss instead' - so reward him with attention for bad behaviour?

MegumiEto You sound like you are doing a great job - nothing wrong with high standards at all. I like Jenners ideas to ensure he knows he is as important as his brother though.

megumiEto poor you I bet you are exhausted and your little man can sence this and try and get his own way,I also think this is a problem with him becoming the "Big Brother* after being the only one for so long,I had this with my DS1 when his brother was born but there was 6 yrs between them and at least DS1 was a school full time,does your little man go to school or play school he may be thinking he is being sent there because there is a new baby on the scene and is showing his dislike to the situation.Sometimes I think 4 is a very inbetween age neither toddler or "bigger boy" and some times they find it hard to ajust to a new baby in the family.?Try to switch off as much as you can without giving in too much sweetie and hopefully he will settle down soon.

Can you give him important jobs to do and tell him he is a Really Useful Engine - this would make my DS's day!

I can't help noticing that you say his behaviour has been bad in the past year and you have an 11-month-old as well. Was the arrival of his sibling a trigger, do you think? How does he treat his brother?

I have two DSs as well and I found DS1's behaviour aged 3 and much of 4 really challenging at times. Your DS sounds like a more extreme version of what I've, on occasion, had to contend with. My DS has always been great at nursery though - the teachers and other kids love him - so I knew he was just acting out for me (and sometimes just out of jealousy of DS2). Now that's he's coming to up to 5 I'm noticing some real improvements. As DS2 gets bigger, more able to play with him and less mummy-centric I'm finding things easier too. I know they get some big doses of testosterone at around this age and also that they're testing the boundaries - all of which can lead to bad behaviour. But I agree - ask for help if you're struggling.

Hi Meg, sounds like a really tough situation. Sounds also like you and DS1 have gotten into a bit of a battleground. While I don't think you should reward negative behaviour, it sounds like he does need some positive time with you too, where he is not always seen as doing something "bad". Especially as it sounds like you are being v consistent with addressing the bad behaviour, and , as other posters have pointed out, there seems to be a link with DS2's arrival.

Something I was wondering about, could you spend some one to one time with DS1, get someone else to look after DS2? There is something called Love Bombing (sounds a bit dodgy!) - a couple of links to explain it here and here. Sounds quite full on but might be useful??

Also another technique I was thinking may be useful, and I can't remember what this was called but it was basically spending 5 mins a day with your child, playing with them in a totally non directive way. I think you can talk about what they are doing ("you put the doll in the car") but not make suggestions ("why don't they drive to the shops now"). I heard about this on a course about parenting programmes, but I cannot remember the name of the course. May be worth looking into a parenting programme too - you get loads of good suggestions, you could probably ask your health visitor for info.

Sorry I've only just read this.

It reads like a bit of a nightmare. I'm not surprised you are fed up, a situation like that must be exhausting, disappointing and unbearable after a while.

I think you DS might be acting up because he is angry or upset for whatever reason (maybe the younger baby as others have pointed out) and possibly because he wants you to focus your attention on him and feel loved and secure. His acting up is probably to some extent done in order to get any attention, even negative, but also because he is in the grip of emotions which he does not know how to express or focus. So he becomes angry / emotional and just has to let it out, whether or not you punish him. In time he might learn to enjoy being punished (in the sense that it conforms to his expectations / the roles you play out at home)

He is still very young and unable to weigh up the consequences of his behaviour properly, or to begin to behave. I think you need to do a major uprooting of your methods. Although being consistent is probably something you ought to stick to , maybe look at other ways to interact with him.

You should at this stage not be dealing with this on your own because you are so wound up it's hard for you to distance yourself and look for positives. When you are just trying to get the house in order in the morning there is enough chaos to contend with and I totally understand why you are fed up and you have my sympathy.

But maybe try to :

get some form of child behaviouralist input into triggers and your responses
get some form of CBT to help you with your feeling
think of different forms of unishment
attempt to create a positive experience for your DS on a daily basis - something little or big. If he is having a tantrum don't punish him by withdrawing treats during that time. He is four and you are in charge! Maybe try to make him laugh to break it out (tickling, funny faces etc) because he is to capable of changing his mood of his own volition. You need to teach him how to control his emotions and express them safely.

Good luck

If my DS doesn't want to get dressed or put shoes on I just say 'right then you can go outside naked, shoeless etc' it has made a bit of an improvement now he realises I won't fight with him over these things and won't give him constant attention about it.

It is hard though when every little thing is a battle and you have my sympathy.