Really having problems with 4.5yo boy

[GeoffM]

We've got several books on the subject, tried numerous things, don't think we're doing anything particularly wrong, yet we're really struggling with our 4.5 year old son. I'm hoping somebody can suggest something new or spot a problem!

The first problem is eating. He really does not want to eat anything most of the time, except sweets of course. Only if he's really hungry will he eat without too much encouragement. When he's not arguing over eating he'll just sit there, often with food actually in his mouth, just not doing anything with it. I don't think there's anything medically wrong - he's had two physicals recently (long story, unrelated reasons) and nothing was picked up. He likes processed food, of course, but we try not to give in to that too often, especially as we both cook from fresh most days. But even when he does have food he likes, mealtimes can often take an hour or more. We've tried using timers and not giving him anything except water until the next mealtime, to no avail. Doesn't make a difference if he helps cook/prepare the food. To be fair, he does eat fruit though.

Next is inattention. Often he's so engrossed that he simply doesn't hear - or maybe he has rather selective hearing. A recent hearing test showed normal hearing. You literally have to be right in his face before he'll respond. Even when he does acknowledge that he's heard, it's often that we have to start counting before he does it - and that doesn't work any more because he waits until 2 or even 3 before doing it every single time.

Sort of related is his attention span. We try to only give one instruction at a time - eg get your PJs on, then when he's finished that, brush your teeth. Five minutes later and he might have his top on but that's all. He can be distracted by nothing at all, just his own world. Ask him again, give him a few minutes, and he'll still be only partially dressed.

He's actually quite intelligent according to the preschool (he goes for 3 full days per week). They similarly have problems with him eating. We try to stimulate him by reading with him, or give him interesting things to do if we can't be with him. Usually he can occupy himself, for example if he wakes up early.

As for sleeping, he tends to go to bed around 8-9pm and wakes up around 7am. No naps during the day, though at preschool they have a quiet time when they lay on mats - most do sleep but not DS.

He gets a reasonable amount of physical exercise - more when he's at preschool, but even at home we have a pool which he loves.

He doesn't get to watch TV much; some days none at all. Same for video/phone games. He does have a 9mo baby sister which I know can be a factor but he seems to have gotten over the jealousy stage. We did move house a couple of months ago, which I know can be another factor, but the behaviour is pretty much the same now as it was before. I don't think we spoil him but sometimes he does act like a spoiled brat. I like to encourage good manners like saying "Please can I have" instead of "I want", yet it must be well over a year since we started getting insistent on it. Maybe it's a game to him to not bother until we remind him.

Wow, so much yet I've probably forgotten something. He's not a bad kid, quite lovable - but these things really drive us mad when it's a continuous theme throughout the day. Sometimes we go to bed absolutely mentally and physically shattered.

Thanks for any advice!

Personally I think time outs are not that useful (though I know many parents that use them successfully, just not for me). I also never smack and think its wrong.

I do think praise and rewards for good behavior work but they must be immediate.123 magic is a useful book and so is 'How to talk to kids...' mentioned earlier. It takes a massive effort on your part to implement these. Only this morning my DH reminded me (in a nice way) that I was having a spectacularly crap conversation with my daughter that was going no-where but tears.

Unless you think there are other issues I can't recommend these books enough. Playful parenting is also good, but I'm a bit tired and miserable for it! When we have done things like the book suggests (either by accident or design) it has born good results with my son.

Why are you always comparing your DS to other children? Every child is different. You say he winds you up. Does he have toddler temper tantrums?
My 5 yr old talks constantly, shouts,takes ages to do anything and is clumsy. Sometimes he drives me crazy but he's a small boy. I too think your expectations are too high.

How much time do you spend with these 20-30 other children OP? How many of them are you parent to? I promise you all children save up their worst behaviour for their parents. All these little angels you know, won't be liitle angels all the time.

Do the pre-school complain about your DS's behaviour? What if he's with his grandparents? Or a babysitter?

Maybe you're not explaining the problem very well because I honestly can't see anything out of the ordinary here (I'm a nanny and have worked in nurseries/schools so my experience is with many, many 4.5 year old boys).

I'm not saying his behaviour isn't annoying or frustrating or that you shouldn't be looking for ways to alter it, but he honestly doesn't sound unusual. Maybe you need to look at your attitude towards him, tbh you sound very negative.

Make a concerted effort to praise more than you tell him off no matter how badly behaved he is. If you're needing to nag him/tell him off every 5 mins, then you need to be praising him every 2 mins e.g. you're sitting nicely, you put your shoes on really well, you're so kind to the baby, thank you that was really helpful. It'll help change your perception of him as a 'problem child' and change his perception of himself as someone who can't do anything right by the sounds of it.

OP, it sounds like you've decided he's a naughty/odd child and won't listen to all the people on here who tell you he's normal. I would firstly look at your expectations of him, secondly stop comparing him, and thirdly as above poster says stop criticising and start praising. He sounds like my DS. I could spend all day arguing with him (and did for a while) then decided to concentrate on the good in him and we have a blast now. He's still sometimes infuriating but it made me realise what an amazing boy he is, and as I became nicer his behaviour has improved.

Also amazed that you know 30 other children of his age welll enough to judge! I can honestly say that I only see about 5 kids of DSs age often enough to have any kind of genuine idea of what their behaviour is like, ie his 2 cousins of his age and his 3 very close friends who we see at least weekly. Any less than that and I couldn't say that I know their behaviour, because what you see is only a tiny snapshot.

Just out of interest how does your oh percieve the problem? Dh finds dd2 immensely infuriating at times, and although I can see that she is more tricky than the other two in many ways, I can usually bring her round more quickly and have fewer tantrums from her than dh. For example she told him off because he didn't do a smiley face with the tomato puree in a cheese + tom puree sandwich. He sees this as an example of her infuriating desire for everything to be done 'her' way and her need to control things. I see it as the inevitable by product of her watching me making hundreds of the sandwiches, and for my own amusement putting a smilie face on. If dh made all the sandwiches then she would probably tell me off for doing a smilie face when it should be an alien monster!

The best way to deal with most behaviour is a mixture of praise and firm bouundaries. Reward charts can work well over the short time and when rewarding specific good behaviour rather than the absence of bad behaviour, so he gets a sticker everytime he does something the first time you ask (as this was one of the things which annoys you), even if he has been naughty before/ after. The sticker is for doing something the first time, not just for being good. Once he has learnt that lesson, you do the next lesson. You need to make sure that he has enough little rewards on the way to make it seem worthwhile.

Apart from agreeing with the comment about how you could possibly know 30 other 4 year olds well enough to REALLY know their behaviour, (no way sorry, you see a snapshot t best) you REALLY need to back off on the eating issue.

Some children eat well. Some over eat and will have anything available, and some are very restrictive and eat very little. The vast majority make it to adulthood despite this!
I am the parent of a non eating child. For six months she ate nothing..and I mean nothing.. but egg whites and rice. She was hospitalised twice as a toddler because of her refusal to eat. I tried everything..bribery, encouragement, tears and tantrums...everyone tried to feed her with no success

She is now 20, studying her medical degree and still a rather odd eater... but she is fine. I feel strongly that with hindsight we should have just BACKED OFF. She was thin and underweight but she was ok..she just didn't like food much and the more we pressured her to eat the more she resisted.

Let him eat as little as he wants, and within reason, what he wants. You won't win the 'battle' over food ever, because at the end of the day he. and only he, will choose what he puts in his mouth.

The rest sounds so typical of a pre schooler I can't imagine how you have found yourself amongst some mythically perfect 4 year olds to be honest

I thought he did get a fair bit of attention, despite the distraction of the baby. He did show jealousy originally but I'm not sure he's showing it now. So I've no idea whether it's attention seeking!

More pre-school would be nice (for us) but money is a bit tight at the moment. But you're right, a few hours less of stress would probably do us all good!

Thanks.

You haven't written a single word that would give me cause for concern about his behaviour.
-- Am also custodian of a current 4.5yo, and have had 3 others in last 10 yrs to attend to.

Can you explain what the 20-30 children you know who behave better would be doing instead? Simply that they do what they're told, and as soon as they're told to do it, is that what you perceive?

Wow, some of you have really turned against me. That's really disappointing as I thought there were people here that helped (indeed there are some).

I'll address some of the points but not the timewasters. When I first moved here, I was on my own (with family following later). I lived with some of those kids for over a month. Again, for those who seem to think I cannot judge kids with being a visitor in the house, do you honestly think children can keep up that act for over a month? Of course not, you're in cloud cuckoo land if you think that. Even staying overnight I seriously have my doubts that kids could be good for 24 hours. Some of you even seem to be questioning how I know 30+ kids. Frankly I find that bizarre. Maybe you don't have many friends or relatives - we are very close with our extended family and all their kids. Let's see: yesterday we were with 6 cousins and friends his age - not an unusual weekend. A few more during the week. Etc etc.

Some of you think I'm being too negative. This is a thread about his naughty side. So of course it's going to be negative! I'm not going to spend ages wasting my time and yours explaining his good side as of course that's great and I don't need help on it. FWIW yes he gets lots of praise though there's always room for more - the over praise that a couple have mentioned now.

My OH gets equally frustrated, perhaps even more so than me.

For those of you who think I'm not listening, well have a read of the thread again and see where I've conceded that there is room for improvement in us, as parents. Kind of double standards to accuse me of that when in fact you have missed those bits!

I have realised one thing in my postings: perhaps I've made other kids out to be angels with no naughty aspects at all. Of course they're naughty - but on the whole they know when to stop and usually stop at the first command. Mine just seems to carry on until physically removed/stopped, whether you're directly in his line of vision telling him to stop, or not.

Thanks to those who have provided constructive criticism. It really does help.

Mine just seems to carry on until physically removed/stopped

That is quite common. Pretty common for my DC most of the time. They only stop quickly when I tell them STOP if they know I will back it up quickly with physical action. And that's not reliably, they will still repeatedly push push push with naughty behaviour other times. Willful can be good, a sign of determination.

Have you asked your local friends if they think your DS is particularly willful or naughty? Are you friends enough to hear their honest opinions? Because they have lived with your DS, too, and can give you much better perspective than us.

The only thing I half wondered is... something that I seem to observe is that sometimes the most willful kids come from the strictest families: strict but inconsistent. Or from families where the parents are too much on top of the child & don't leave them in peace, never cut a bit of slack. But I'm clutching at straws there, it's just a hint of something that you might be depicting.

I can't see anyone has turned against you.
It is hard for others to understand exactly what he is ding that you find so difficult from a few paragraphs on the Internet.
You obviously find his behaviour difficult but those who are saying he sounds fairly typical (from your description) are right.
A big move and a new baby will usually affect a child's behaviour, it would be very odd if these major events didn't.
However infuriating he is, he does sound quite typical.
Try not to make an issue of the food.
He may be trying to take control using te food and ignoring because his life has changed an awful lot in the last year.

We have asked pre-school, family, and friends whether they think DS is unusually bad. Of course it's always hard for them to say "yes, he's naughty" even if it were true. But I have noticed the lack of positivity, like "oh no, he's fine, nothing wrong with him". Silence speaks words sometimes.

Maybe we're too strict, I don't know. I know I like him to use "please" and "thank you" and won't give him something unless he says please first. The alternative is to let him demand "I want" all the time. Damned if I teach him manners, damned if I let him be demanding! We don't make him tidy his room like some parents do - only if it's really bad like smelly clothes all over the place or something messy like paints, playdoh, etc.

"It is hard for others to understand exactly what he is ding that you find so difficult from a few paragraphs on the Internet [...] those who are saying he sounds fairly typical (from your description) are right."

Kind of contradicting yourself there! I agree it's hard to express the situation in words alone, but some of the judgmental comments aren't really helpful. There are some good ideas and we're trying them.

How do you all suggest we handle the mealtimes then? At some point there has to be an end to the mealtime which implies a timer, whether physical or just a notion "when we've finished, that's the end of the meal" (not appropriate but an example). Do we just let him sit there, not mentioning the food at all, and if the "end" of the meal comes, in whatever form that is, and he's not eaten, just leave it at that? Then, if he has healthy snacks when he later gets hungry, would he not just learn to rely on the snacks instead?

Well no, not really.
I have said it is hard to understand why you are finding his behaviour so difficult. No contradiction there.
I just put in an alternative reason why, apart from his behaviour being s
Fairly typical, it may be that the true awfulness of his behaviour is not coming across in your written discription.

I deal with faddy eating by offering foods in small quantities, a mixture of what he will eat and what he refuses.
Low key , no fuss.
No 'well done' for eating and no telling off either.
I don't tend to give snacks so u can't comment on that.
Mealtimes ate finished when you decide they are. I wouldn't go near a timer. Plates removed with no comment and if he has a yogurt or fruit for dessert he can have it.
This works if non eating is down to control issues but if has a more serious eating issue you will find posters with more experience on the feeding boards.

I meant it's one thing to say it's hard to describe in words, and then to say that others are correct - when you acknowledge those words might not fully describe the situation! Anyway, that exchange demonstrates the problem of words alone!

Somebody else mentioned healthy snacks between meals hence why I wondered whether it would lead to relying on the snacks. I'll have a look at the feeding boards - thanks.

Well you can talk to each other about how lovely the food is, take your time eating it, but then when you feel a sufficient time has passed say 'oh I see you weren't hungry, never mind we'll pop it in the fridge in case you get hungry later'. The main thing is not to try to pander to him too much.

There is nothing wrong with teaching him manners as long as you are both consistent.

Remember though that if you were apart from him for a month or more that will affect him. When dh is away for the weekend we relax and turn down the pressure a bit, as indeed he does in the other position. It is hard parenting alone, especially with a baby too. You can't always be as firm as you might if you know that your relief shift is back in an hour or two. The main thing is to be firm, fair and consistent, agree between you what you want, and any areas which can wait. Prioritise behaviour to change and do one or two max at a time. It might be nice to have a child who says please, thank you, eats all their veg and does things the first time, but he won't manage all those things at the same time and then you and he will fail. You also need to make sure that you model the behaviour, so if you want him to say please and thank you then make sure that you all say them every time, especially to him.

I think that the food is easy. You serve up the meal, it helps if you have bowls to help himself, and after you have eaten yours you give a little longer and clear away. Serve pudding and do the same. Don't discuss. Don't give snacks. If he says he is hungry just sound baffled and say 'well you would - you didn't eat your lunch'. He won't starve - he will work out he needs to eat when it is a meal. You could have fruit available at other times.
Give him lots of exercise tire him out!

I think I'm consistent with the Ps&Qs - to the point of tiredness on my part! However, my wife is not so hot on that sort of thing herself which, now you mention it, is inconsistent as a parenting team. I even say it when not strictly necessary, like "please get in the bath" rather than "time for a bath" - but not in a whiny, desperate way that it could easily become.

Meal times - we always spend time clearing up after a meal so we can use that time for allowing him to eat beyond our own times. Ok, no snacks, just put up with the "I'm hungry"!

Thanks, that's really helpful.

Do you think that there is something wrong with him? His nursery should be prepared to give you an honest opinion as to whether they are having problems with his behaviour. If they are not then it is unlikely that there are any real issues but it they or you have real concerns then go to your Dr and ask for an assessment.

no snacks does work. my 4.5 ds just has a little appetite aos if I give him snacks he won't eat his meal. He is allowed fruit between meals because that doesn't fill him up. DD on the other hand can eat a normal snack and a good meal. kids are all different, and you can't make a child eat if they don't want to, all you can do is make mealtimes not stressful for all of you. If he doesn't eat and complains of being hungry you can easily laugh and say 'duh, yeah, you didn't eat any lunch!' and if he asks for snacks then tell him to wait until his next meal. Children will rarely starve themselves, and do self regulate. Forcing children to eat only leads to problems, IMO.

I still don't think you've got much to worry about. And please don't be defensive, if you ask on MN you will get a variety of opinions. I don't think anyone was rude, just trying to look at things differently to you.

I wouldn't say wrong as that sounds like a defect to me. Perhaps extreme or maybe testing the limits of normality!

He's only been going to this preschool for a couple of months now. However, talking to them would actually be a good idea, to check how he's settling in - and ask about his behaviour. They made a passing comment on his eating once but I didn't pursue the issue as we were on our way out at the time. I think his previous pre-school also mentioned it but as he was only there for 3 hours per day, they don't really push the mid-morning snack. The nursery he went to before that is going back a bit too far in his short life to be of relevance now.

Somebody said about the upheaval recently. Undoubtedly that's true, but he was like this before the upheaval as well.

Sorry for being tetchy this morning - some of the posts just seemed a bit aggressive and finger pointing and not really what one wants over one's cornflakes on a Monday morning, with the OH in the background trying without much success to get DS ready for preschool. I work from home which doesn't help either.

All I can think is that if you know 30+ children age 3-6yo who 90% of the time do what they're told within one minute of being told, and only after being told once, then please get their parents to write a book about their parenting secrets. Because I for one would like to know what they are!! Especially when it comes to things like... getting a 12yo to remember his toothbrush when going on a sleepover.

I insist on P+Qs with mine about 80% of the time. They still are grumpy, fussy, stroppy, shouty & borderline defiant (or worse) ?50% of the time.

DC4 is a fussy eater, omg, I never had one before him, Aaack, what a nuisance. I provide what he likes that is healthy enough for my standards & have other options on offer if he ever decides to budge out of his comfort zone. I will usually provide or procure alternative easy-to-prep stuff for meals (like plain buttered toast) if he refuses, because 4yos are irrational creatures & they get worse if they haven't eaten (my husband won't eat if he's upset, then he comes quite irrational because of lack of food, so no surprise the children are just as bad). I refuse to make food something I worry about, beyond that.

Except that I spend way too much time feeding them. Could literally spend my life in the kitchen.