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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

Normal 3.5 year old behaviour?

35 replies

littlemisspiggy · 07/03/2006 10:44

DS is 3.5. In his good moments he is an adorable, happy & laughing little boy. In the last 5 months or so his behaviour and tantrums have become more unpredictable and tricky to manage. I wouldn’t say we are at Supernanny level yet but DH and I are finding it hard not to lose patience but at the same time not just give in. Here are a few examples:

DS wakes up at 4:30 am & comes into our bedroom and says he needs to go to the toilet. So far no problem. Then says he needs his sunglasses to go in the bathroom because the light’s too bright. When I say I don’t know where they are he starts whining and then ends up on the floor wailing his eyes out.

Or, later I ask him what colour straw he would like in his beaker of chocolate milk (he always chooses pink straw for purple beaker) he says green. I put the green one in the beaker and then he says no I want pink. ‘But DS you already chose green;’ cue more wailing.

Or, I am going up the stairs with a tray of hot coffee, his milk etc, and he will go into one on the stairs because either he needs to go first/ he needs to be second/ I need to carry him (29 wks preggers)/ he’s ‘stuck’(pretends that his feet are glued to the floor). All very funny but not with a tray of coffee in my hands. My pleas for him to just keep going up get met with more wailing and flailing.

I know these sound just like examples of normal pre-school kids antics but examples like this are happening all day long so how do you get the balance right between pandering to their little characters and making them understand you can't always have everything you want the second you want it without having to go through World War 3?

Sorry this is a bit long but I’m wondering how other parents get the balance right and cope with these kind of episodes.

OP posts:
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tex111 · 07/03/2006 10:48

I'll be watching this thread closely. Going through something similiar with my own 3.5 year old DS. We had a baby four months ago and I've attributed a lot of the tears and difficult behaviour to the transition but only last weekend was saying to DH that I don't know how to deal with it. We try to be as patient as possible but, as you describe, it can be over the smallest and most unexpected thing. Good luck. I know what you're going through!

stripey · 07/03/2006 10:56

Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but I think you need to get a bit more strict with him.

Even at 3.5 they know right from wrong. I have a 3.5 year old but he is the second, ds1 is 5.5. We have always been a bit strict with ds2 because otherwise it would seem unfair to ds1 that ds2 could do things he couldn't. With the straw example I would say have the green or nothing and if he refused I would take the milk away after a while he will realise tantrums are pointless as he is not going to get his own way.

I think a lot depends on how a child responds to discipline too. With ds1 I know that the way to get good behaviour from him is to reward rather than punish. Eg we have set up a smiley face sticker chart recently as he was misbehaving at school. He gets to draw a big smile on the face if he has been good but if naughty it has to be a sad crying face. Ds2 insisted on having one as well which has worked well as his main misbehaviour is running away when we are out. Now I remind him of a sad face and he comes back and holds my hand. He got a couple of sad faces on the w/e and he really didn't like it at all.

GDG · 07/03/2006 10:58

lmp - well, it sounds perfectly normal. Ds2 is 3.4 and is exactly the same. He is very hard work atm.

He will get upset about straw colour just like your ds. Also, if we are going upstairs, I absolutely cannot run ahead of him - he has to be in line with me or ahead or else he loses the plot. Same if going from one room to another. Bizarre little things upset him and sometimes I don't even know what it is as he in the most hysterical tantrum and won't tell me.

At the moment, I'm handling it by not losing patience and talking calmly and clearly to him - that is definitely helping as before I was losing it a bit with him which just made him shout all the more. Also, I am aware of not letting him get behind me on the stairs etc so I'm kind of letting him get away with that one.

Sometimes he gets upset because I do something for him and he wanted to do it, e.g. flush the toilet or shut the door - I just say 'oh sorry, sweetheart, tell you what, next time it's your turn to do it' and funnily enough that often works!

Anyway, don't worry about it - it's entirely normal I think and just a phase you need to ride through with as much patience as you can muster!!

stripey · 07/03/2006 10:58

Forgot to add I have promised them a trip to Legoland at Easter if they both get lots of smiley faces but not if there are lots of sad faces.

GDG · 07/03/2006 11:00

Totally agree with Stripey - with the straw thing I refuse to change it. Yesterday he asked for sandwiches but he didn't eat them and came to ask for something else - no way, he didn't get anything else!

I too have used reward charts. Ds1 is 4.11 and when he started reception he was unsettled and when he came out of school he'd hit me and lash out and then at home he'd be mean to his brothers. So we started the chart for him and also used it for ds2's outbursts and for getting them to hurry along with getting dressed in the morning. I can't tell you the power of 'threatening' a sad face on the chart! It works wonders!

Our chart has smiley shiny stickers or a drawn on black face. If they get so many stickers in a day they get a 'transport' sticker at the end.

collision · 07/03/2006 11:02

Perfectly normal and we are just getting out of it which is a relief.

You have to stick to your guns and not let them win as they are trying to test you to see where the boundaries are. It is very hard work but as one MNr once said (Maybe CD?) 'Screaming and shouting does not make me do things and is not tolerated in our house. Bad behaviour is not rewarded.'

It is really hard work but it does come to an end.

collision · 07/03/2006 11:03

Oh yes and dont pander to them and give them too many choices.

Dont change the colour of the straw and dont ask what he would like for lunch. just make it and he will have to eat it.

Reward charts are FAB and we did one for ds1 and only needed it for a fortnight.

FrannyandZooey · 07/03/2006 11:05

I disagree. I would try to be more understanding of his needs and wants and try to avoid the flashpoints. The bathroom thing: wel, he doesn't like the light, so could you get a dim nightlight or torch he could take with him? I don't like having the light full on if I get up in the night either, it wakes me up. Or is this actually a problem because he is scared to go to the loo by himself in the night? In which case a potty in his room, or work out (together) a way to help him feel safe about going.

The straw thing - he wants a different straw - so what? I mean I know it's annoying, but it isn't worth fighting over, surely? Give him the other straw!

The coffee thing - take him up first and the coffee up second, or vice versa. It's not really safe to do this.

I know as you say that this sort of behaviour goes on all day and you can't always 'pander' to them. But choose your battles wisely. If you can get the kind of atmosphere where you are a team working together and helping each other then he is going to be much more likely to be co-operative in general. I wouldn't go down the sticker route, it's only a short term fix and does nothing to promote helpful behaviour long term. Negotiation and compromise are good skills for a child to learn - model these skills for him and see if things ease up a bit.

By the way it is very easy to come in and advise another parent how to be bloody perfect isn't it? Think of me the next time it happens, I am probably going through the exact same thing tearing my hair out with my little boy as well. Wink

littlemisspiggy · 07/03/2006 11:06

Glad to see we are not alone. Stripey, you are not being harsh. We are I think actually quite strict. Both DH and I believe there should be clear divides between acceptable and not acceptable. This morning we said it was green straw or nothing at all and took the beaker away until he decided he did want it after all. On Saturday one of his toys was removed until he behaved better. I suppose I wonder sometimes if we are too hard on him and not taking his age into account enough IYSWIM. Are we dealing with a 3.5 year old the way you should be dealing with say a 6 year old?

OP posts:
FrannyandZooey · 07/03/2006 11:09

I don't think anyone should be dealt with in this harsh and punitive way. Sometimes I change my mind about things, I don't expect to be told I am naughty and can't have anything now because of it. What do you think this teaches him about how people behave to one another?

stripey · 07/03/2006 11:16

FrannyandZooey I suppose a lot depends on your own attitude and how headstrong your child is. I think if you start giving in on a lot of things now it will be difficult later to be taken seriously.

I wouldn't say sticker charts appeal to all children but with ds1 they are by far the best method of getting good behaviour. He was excellent at school yesterday and couldn't wait to come home and draw on his happy face. For me this is a much better way to persuade him to be good than threatening something.

Ds2 didn't respond well to a sticker chart while potty training but now he is a bit older it does seem to be working. He behaves well at home because he has quite a laid back personality and can easily entertain himself but when we are out he tends to run away, the sticker chart has really helped with this.

stripey · 07/03/2006 11:19

FrannyandZooey how old is your child?

trice · 07/03/2006 11:19

try not to think in terms of winning. I agree with F&Z that you should concentrate on enforcing important rules about behavior first. Don't expect them to behave rationally at this age and you won't be disappointed. Make a huge fuss about good behavior and enjoy their funny little ways. They'll be all grown up before you can blink.

ChicPea · 07/03/2006 11:20

I have a 3.6mths year old Girl and 2.5mths Boy so need to be firm as first one will whine and the second one can copy. This is how I would deal with your individual situations:

Straw situation: ask him at beginning if he would like the green or the pink with purple beaker. If he choses the green ask him if he is sure because if he changes his mind, you will not change it. Furthermore you will take away the straw altogether and he can drink the milk without a straw until its time for the next choc milk. The first time he will prob chose the green and then to test you wail for the pink. So you carry out your threat and take away the green straw and if he wants it back as you take it away then give it to him. If he continues to wail tell him that if he doesn't want to drink his choc milk he doesn't have to and you are ready to wash his cup. He will either continue to wail or drink it. If he drinks it you can praise him for being a good boy and if he continues to wail, I would but that's me, take it away altogether and tell him that hopefully the next time he has choc milk he will be happy with the straw he choses. If you are not ready to do that or feel bad, you could tell him that the noise is unpleasant and that you will leave the room until he stops. When he stops enter the room. And the next time he has his drink to think carefully which special straw he would like.

4.30am when he starts asking for sunglasses or anything else that he doesn't usually sleep with you have to not give in but make up a story like @The moon is still looking after the sky and all the children are sleeping in their special beds and all the toys are resting ready for a very busy day tomorrow. Let's let sunglasses/other rest until the morning and then we can say 'wake up sunglasses/other' and it will wake up and be happy that you let it sleep. You may have another imaginative story in mind but if you make it sound magical and enchanting it is easier to pacify rather than saying no.

Going upstairs, you could sing a marching song, you could tell him to stamp as hard as he can like an elephant or tip toe as lightly as he can liek a mouse or you can pretend that your feet are glued and you then say abrakadrabra and pretend that it worked in releasing your feet and then you say it again to see if it releases his feet and off you go. If the elephant and mouse approach works you could say at the beginning of the stairs 'shall we be mice this time@ or 'guess what I am' as you tip toe.

When DD asks for something or does something that is forbidden, like climb on the windowsill, I will ask her to get down and explain its danger. If she still doesn't listen then I sing no, no, no, along to the first tune that comes into my head, (possbly twinkle twinkle or happy birthday) then take her down and continue to sing no no no then add the words you might fall, and we don't want you to have an acc ci dent, by which time she is listening to the words and wondering what I am going to sing next!!!! No struggle entails.

I find the more humour I inject, the more receptive they are to it. I know this is hard when you are preg and congratulations! and tired but a little humour and know how will work and make those difficult situations that we all have easier.

stripey · 07/03/2006 11:20

Also in response to your 11.09 post children are not adults and need to be set boundries IMO

ChicPea · 07/03/2006 11:22

Since I stared typing so many posts have appeared. Is it now light in the UK at 4.30am or are you in another country? Re: star charts which other mums have mentioned, I have never used one but if all else failed I would. Am saving it for when I need to.

colditz · 07/03/2006 11:38

It's ridiculous to spend all your time faffing around with straws, if I let my nearly 3 year old ds change his mind about what colour straw he wants, he would dither for 45 minutes, I would be running in and out of the kitchen, and it would end in a screaming fit as he would be unable to come to a decision.

I learned this through trial and error.

Just make it clear that once he has chosen, he cannot change it. If he kicks off about it, that is a tantrum. He still has a choice - he can drink his drink or not.

On the stairs - walk around him, leave him to it. Messing about on the stairs is dangerous IMO. They are not places to play.

Wailing about sunglasses at 4:30 in the morning is not a reasonable way to behave, have you tried a nightlight on the landing?

I see the point made about this is a normal way for a preschooler to behave, but that doesn't mean it should be pandered to when it is deliberately disruptive.

littlemisspiggy · 07/03/2006 11:38

Thanks ChicPea. I have tried the abracadabra bit for stuck feet. I guess it's just frustrating when it can take 1/2 hour to go downstairs. I agree that humour works wonders.
F&Z as you say I do try to keep a look out for the danger signs and use diversionary tactics. Sometimes though there seems to be no rhyme or reason to the timing of the tantrums.
I do think children should learn from early on that our actions good or bad have consequences either to ourselves or to others, I just need know how to teach this in a fair way.
Re the coffee, he is quite capable of going up and down the stairs on his own and does it all day long. He just seems to choose when I'm carrying something to get 'stuck'. I wouldn't mind doing separate trips in normal circumstances but in my current heavy pg state I try to minimise trips up & downstairs.

Sounds from other posts that a reward chart really does work. I think we will have to get on to that.

OP posts:
FrannyandZooey · 07/03/2006 11:50

Yes nobody is going to get it right all the time littlemiss. I know what you are saying about consequences but I feel that punitive consequences enforced by an adult are in fact another name for a punishment, and punishments have been shown to be a crappy way to improve your child's behaviour long term.

Yes children need boundaries where safety and reasonable behaviour are concerned but this does not have to be enforced in a harsh and controlling way.

My son is nearly 3, but in my professional life I've worked with many children aged from birth to teenagers. I don't think there should be one basic way to treat adults, another for teenagers, another for 6 year olds and another for 3 year olds. We are all humans. In my opinion that's like feeding a child turkey twizzlers for 10 years and then complaining because she won't eat a proper home cooked meal. It should be a continual gradual process, leading to the child able to take resposibility for themselves and their own actions.

did I go on a bit? Sorry :)

colditz · 07/03/2006 11:57

But F&Z if the boundry is not enforced, it isn't a boundry.

I honestly believe it is a parent's duty to teach a child the way the world works, and the world isn't going to let a 3 year old dither over straws for as long as they like. I do believe the limits of messing about should be imposed fairly firmly by the parents, otherwise the child will mes about all the time, and feel very upset when it isn't tolerated by people who simply do not have time (teachers, childminders)

Just because someone is unreasonable doesn't mean they should be allowed to continue to be unreasonable for as long as they feel like it.

Enid · 07/03/2006 11:57

my 3.5 year old dd2 is like this atm

ggirl I think it was came up with the great phrase '3 year olds are psycho' which I think just about sums it up Grin

I have got much stricter with her when she plays up (we also have crying over straws) and last night took her drink away from her because of her incessant whinging. But I temper this with lots of praise and cuddles when she is being good.

It doesn't help that I am heavily pg as well misspiggy and of course everyone wants to blame her behaviour on that Angry. Also 6 year old dd1 is going through a totally angelic stage atm and throwing poor dd2 into sharp relief...

You are not alone. I agree with posters that have said be stricter (cod I hope you are reading this [she thinks I am a wuss with my kids Wink])

littlemisspiggy · 07/03/2006 12:14

Thanks for your replies.
As I said DH and I both believe in boundaries but of the two of us he is n balance probably more the bad cop to my good cop and sometimes I think he may be too harsh ( I didn't grow up with a Dad around so have nothing to compare him with)but it sounds like he is probably right.
Before anyone thinks we're completely heartless, DS does get loads of praise,cuddles & treats in his good moments.
I am grateful for all the replies because it helps put things into perspective and reassure you that you're not losing the plot.

OP posts:
littlemisspiggy · 07/03/2006 12:14

Thanks for your replies.
As I said DH and I both believe in boundaries but of the two of us he is n balance probably more the bad cop to my good cop and sometimes I think he may be too harsh ( I didn't grow up with a Dad around so have nothing to compare him with)but it sounds like he is probably right.
Before anyone thinks we're completely heartless, DS does get loads of praise,cuddles & treats in his good moments.
I am grateful for all the replies because it helps put things into perspective and reassure you that you're not losing the plot.

OP posts:
tex111 · 08/03/2006 08:40

After a really difficult day with DS yesterday I started doing some research and discovered that little boys get a surge of testosterone at around the age of 4! It can make them particularly demanding and frustrated (and frustrating!). Apparently it all calms back down again around 5 to 5 and a half.

I like this theory because it makes me more sympathetic to DS (I know what it's like to feel hormonally crazed) which will hopefully make me more patient with him. I also like the idea that there's an end date for his extreme behaviour. I know all the parenting technique stuff still applies but it's somehow a comfort to know that there maye be a reason that my sweet little boy can be such a handful at the moment and that he's not just trying to wind me up. Well, not all the time anyway.

getbakainyourjimjams · 08/03/2006 08:46

It's tha ge. That got to be 1st thing drives me absolutley insane. If ds2 does kick off about it I just ignore it. We get straw arguments as well.

After this phase they then enter the "little emperor" phase around 4. That can be recognised by things like "mummy go to my room and bring me my wooden James". Err no

Actually the best way I've found to deal with any of this sort of behaviour is just to completely blank it. Yep ds2 will scream about not being allowed up the stairs first, but I just tend to say something like 'well I had to go first because I was about to drop ds3" then walk off and ignore him until he's stopped crying.

Ignore ignore ignore.