Constant "negotiation" with 2.9 yr DD exhausting. Any tips?

[Murtette]

DD is 2.9 and never seems to do as she's told/asked. In her defence, she's probably not as bad as I think but I've also got a 9 wk old DS so have broken nights & am getting used to juggling the two of them. I'm also conscious that she suddenly seems very grown up in comparison to him so I may be expecting her to be too rational and biddable.
Anyway, enough of the excuses.
In the morning, before going to nursery, she has to get dressed, wash her face, clean her teeth & do her hair. This seems to involve constant negotiation. We decide what she's wearing the night before so that's not a problem but its where does she get dressed... in her bedroom or in the bathroom. And once she has decided that, where exactly is she going to stand? And who is going to help with her buttons - me or DP? Then where in the bathroom is she going to stand to do her teeth. And who is going to help? When she washes her face, is she going to do the top of her face first or her neck? And is she going to have bobbles or clips? And once she has decided that, which exact ones is she going to have?
Is this normal? Or am I creating a brat? I've tried telling her exactly what she's going to do (as in "this is what you're wearing, we're getting dressed here in your bedroom and I'm helping with your buttons and then I'm going to help you with your teeth etc) but she immediately disagrees with some aspect of it. Its not as if I can say "if you don't do X, you won't go to nursery" as she has to go to nursery. And in the evenings, when we have similar discussions, I want her to go to bed.

Sorry for the long post but I feel as though I'm coming up against a brick wall with her. What I want her to do seems so simple & could be achieved in a few minutes but is dragged out forever (or so it seems!).
Any tips?

If you didn't have a tiny one to consider too I'd say parenting is a dictatorship not a democracy. However with a tiny one and the broken nights sleep, changes in family dynamics etc I'd say have you thought about reward charts? A star for each task done without fuss, 10 stars equal a new hair bobble or getting to choose the bedtime story or five extra minutes doing xyz.

At the moment, it is a dictatorship but with her as the dictator who, on rare occasions benevolently grants me one of my wishes! On other days though, she will be lovely & when we're out she's remarkably well behaved.

How do reward charts actually work? When does she get the reward - on a daily basis or less often? And once you start, how long do you have to keep doing it for?

No idea what went wrong with the thread title. It looked normal when I posted it.

My dd1 wh is 2.11 is exactly the same. She gets 2 choices either of which is acceptable to me. So...

DD1 "I want to get dressed in the bathroom" would be
Me "You will be getting dressed in your bedroom. Would you like to put your vest or pants on first" for example.

So I cunningly distract her with another option

Also pick your battles. If she wants to brush her teeth while only wearing socks who cares, it doesn't matter. If she wants to clean her teeth while wearing her best party dress - different matter.

There are 21 months between my 2 so dd2 is just over 1. I can't blame a newborn, dd1 has always been the same argumentative little sod

It's really up to you how it works but the younger the child the easier the target needs to be. For your DD to get her in the spirit it could be if she does x/y/z on day 1 she gets to ride in the front of the car on the way to nursery/ choose her own hair bobble/ breakfast cereal. Initially starting with very achievable targets and then introducing your targets for her over the following days.

The toughest thing is being strict. Well we didn't quite do that this time so we need one more star to achieve x. Let's see if you can be a cleaver girl and stand here whilst mummy brushes your lovely hair. Oh didn't you do well, now you have that next star, let's show daddy and draw it on the chart, look how many spaces you've filled today...

Has she always been like this or do you think she is trying to take some of the power back away from the baby by trying to have things all her own way?

It sounds bloody exhausting. Occasionally when one of mine have tried to be like this I have just not moved until they do what I want - e.g. put your shoes on - no no I want daddy to do it - put your shoes on or you can't go in the garden. And then just wait however long it takes for them to crack .

Agree with two choices method - e.g. DS 2 can choose whether he holds my hand or holds the pram whilst walking. He doesn't get to choose his own clothes though.

Final point - does it matter to you where she gets dressed or which part of her face she washes first?

I find putting "I need you to..." sometimes works. .

Thanks for all of your responses. I had an interesting day today as, last night, I read these reponses and thought "but I do a lot of that". For example, if I don't mind about something, DD will have two choices both of which work for me; if I make a stand, I stick to it (we had a 40 min stand off the other day about the putting away of her colouring stuff). So, today, I really paid attention to what I was saying & what DD was doing and had a few lightbulb moments.
I suddenly realised that she wants help doing things she was able to do months ago by herself (for example, putting on her T-shirt) and that she wants watching all of the time whereas she used to be very good at going off & playing by herself for a good 30 minutes or so. I also noticed this morning that she was quite happy with me helping her get ready until DP picked up DS at which point DP had to brush her hair. And she was quite happy playing with her dolls by herself until she heard DS grizzling as he woke up from his nap & knew I'd be off to see to him at which point she wanted me to watch her play. So, I think a lot of this is new baby related.
I also think that I used to zone a lot of it out but now that she wants me to help or watch I am more involved and I also have the pressure of knowing that DS wants my attention. It doesn't bother me in the least which bit of her face is washed first & used to find it very sweet that she'd tell her nose not to be sad as he'd have first turn with the flannel tomorrow but now that I have to be more actively involved in these discussions with parts of her face, I find it exhausting and exasperating as I just want her to get on with it so I can get on with other things.
Thank you for all of your help in enabling me to realise what is (or possibly is) going on. Now I just have to find a solution!

my DD (just 3) is exactly like this, and has been for as long as she could talk... and we don't have a baby to worry about, so it's not a sibling jealousy thing. she's always been given a choice of two, where possible, but in the last 6 months or so has often gone for 'secret option 3'..!! and she won't be diverted by the usual tactics. DH sometimes manages to bamboozle her with massive amounts of inane detail when he's trying to get her to do something she doesn't want to do, but she's wising up to that! she's a little limpet to me too, so doesn't play on her own very often or let DH do things for her if we're both around, and hates me being on the phone/email/busy doing housework

i'll try the "i really need you to..." tactic and see if that works. we've ummed and aahed about rewards charts and can't settle on a structure that works (i.e. frequency/ level of rewards). any actual examples would be very welcome :)

My dd is the same (though she's an only). We do a combination of

• choice of 2 acceptable (to me /dh) things.

• natural consequences, if you don't get dressed/put shoes on etc then we can't go out (works if it's something she wants to do).

• joking that we don't think she can do something because she's too little; she seems to like the challenge.

• telling her that something needs to be done e.g does she want to put her socks on herself or does she need help.

For anything else that for us is an absolute (e.g teethbrushing); it's an ultimatum - either do what we ask or x will happen. For refusing.teeth brushing, story time before.bed is reduced (she loves story time, so it.only happened once).

I don't think there is a right answer, just working out what works for your toddler, plus picking.your battles; so for me, it really doesn't matter if dd's clothes.match, as long as she is suitably dresses for the weather.

And if you say that there will be a consequence to a behaviour, then stick to it, whether reward or punishment, dc will then learn you mean.what you say.

we have this too - dd is 3.6. Some of it new baby related, although less so now (baby is 8 months). It is exhausting and dd just never seems to learn. She's generally not too fussed about consequences (or tries to argue her way out of them). But I do think that you have to give them the illusion of control some of the time - which is why the choice option is good, but sometimes signaling it as such, 'dd, you get to choose'. Is there something that you can put her in charge of - with supervision. DD is about to take on a fortnight of feeding the neighbor's chickens and she is delighted to be in charge of something. So much of their lives is about having decisions taken for them - you are able to make a rational decision about where you will put your pjs on - and its a habit, so doesn't require a decision, but I reckon I wouldn't like it much if I was micro managed all the time. Still has to be done, of course, but it makes it easier to see why they kick up if you try and imagine yourself into their position sometimes.