DSS Lying - medical condition related

[MumatEndofTether]

Just want some support really.

My DSS is 9 and has recently been referred for tests regarding a long-standing medical problem (gastric problems)

One of the reasons that it's gone on for so long untreated is that DSS lies about it, so his parents didn't know that the problem was so severe/long lasting until this week.

I know that both his mum and dad have emphasised how important it is, but even after a long conversation about it last night when DP really thought he'd got somewhere, he lied to the Dr today in front of them both - having told them something different only a few days ago!

I appreciate it's embarrassing for him - but it isn't limited to this issue - he lies regularly about all sorts of things (I just stay out of it) - but this is affecting his health and medical treatment!

Any suggestions on dealing with a lying 9 year old?

StarBallBunny fully agree with you. That sort of issue should never be something to hide from everyone.
You might not want to tell everyone on the playground but the child needs to feel comfortable enough to be able to talk about it in his own home.

Blimey, I'm really feeling for this kid.

People lie because they don't want to be found out. Either because they are embarrassed, or don't want to get into trouble.

The only way to stop him lying is to reasure him he will not be in any trouble, and that is sooo doesn't bother you, so that he's not embarrassed. (What you get embarrassed about is a cultural thing, so let him know this is something that he needn't be embarrassed about.

(MrsJREwing - I have a colleague who shares every minute detail of her period with the rest of us - some things doesn't embarrass some people)

I think he needs to know that withing the family, and with the Dr these things can be openly discussed.

Also, I think his mum and dad really need to pull together on this on, and share how bad the situation is, and how they are going to deal with it.

Lynette, you have my sympathy, I knew someone who was a period oversharer too, she had no dignity. One thing we all agree on, it doesn't have to be a secret, and the child can't feel comfortable to get help from his Dad.

Try ERIC for information and advise.

Think the resolution to being scared and lying is all part of the treatment of the condition. 9 years old is a horrible age for social embarrassment, the poor kid must be so stressed about it all, never mind the adults.

Yes everyone needs to stress that this is not his fault, no one is cross and everyone just wants to help.
Nine is a very difficult age, children start to want independence before they totally understand the implications.

Of course you are involved he is your DSS, people who think you should be kept in the dark have obviously never been a caring step parent! All you can do is talk openly about things, we have all been embarrassed about something at some point and he will realise that if you explain - I would imagine it may take some time. My DSS says we talk about poo (and other toilet related humour) too much, but laughs about it too! It may help him to realise that we've all had runny poo occasionally, I would imagine he's just really embarrassed.

I think he is embarassed and he is pretending this have not happened. If you have room in the bathroom I'd get together an emergency kit. An incontinance pad to put on the floor while he gets undressed, a bag to put all soiled clothing in, the shower ready to go at any tie and fresh towels and a fresh set of clothing.

Dss must not think you have got this for him, your dp needs to do that. I also think a useful thinkg would be a word, so that dss does not have to say he has had an accident, or made a mess but just something that he can say that means 'I'm getting changed and into the shower.

He also needs reasurance that this is not being discussed with everyone he comes into. Just people who have to know such as the Dr.

I like sashh's idea of making it easier for him to clean himself up in private.

I wonder if his parents should also ask him to make some decisions for himself now. He's clearly struggling with being marched to the GP and having adults talk about his difficulties without his permission.

I think if it were my 9 year old DD I would talk her through her options. Your DSS basically has a choice. He can continue to try and hide it but he won't always be successful as has already been demonstrated. That means he is likely to end up being very embarrassed at school or friends' houses at some point. An alternative is for him to go and talk honestly to the GP about the problem in the hope of making it go away.

He could be allowed to choose which adult goes with him or to go into the appointment alone if that is easier. If the practice has several GPs he could be allowed to choose which one to see.

If he doesn't want to have a conversation about it maybe he could write it all down and hand it to the GP with the understanding that he won't be quizzed about the details unless it is absolutely necessary.

Given this power and responsibility he may choose to take a more grown-up approach and bite the bullet. He may take a little while to decide to do it and it may take a couple more accidents to convince him that he needs help.

The thing is I think this has to be his decision. Otherwise he will continue to feel embarrassed and backed into a corner and lying will be his only escape strategy.

I fully understand your frustration with the lying. My 9 year old DD is the same and she actually managed to get surgery cancelled last week by lying when she was on the trolley ready to go to theatre because she was so scared of having an operation. We are now waiting until the pain is bad enough that she decides herself to go ahead because it has to be her decision.

Another strategy may be to ask the surgery to put his dad in contact with the local continence nurse/advisor. This will be someone who is used to discussing wee and poo with people who are crucified with embarrassment about it and with a bit of luck should be skilled and making the whole thing easier.

timandra Your post has me even more worried now!

While I see exactly where you are coming from in terms of allowing DC's to be involved in their own care, and give them some control/autonomy - my DSS is certainly not capable of some of things you suggest - should he be, at 9 years old?

He can't (won't?) wash or shower independently, so although I love sashh's idea - it isn't something he can be left to do at the moment! He seemed quite happy to return to his room and continue playing despite the fact that he had poo over his clothes and hands - he made no attempt to clean up or tell anyone, either!

Given the choice you describe of risking embarrassment of an accident at school or seeking medical treatment, he would undoubtedly ignore the issue, rather than acknowledge that he has some influence over it. He lives his life with things happening to him, and seems to have learnt to accept them, bottling up any reaction or emotion he may feel. As DP doesn't know what it is, there is always the risk that permanent damage could be done to DSS health if he doesn't seek medical treatment until DSS decides he wants to.

He says that he is not in pain, and if that is true, then I don't think that he would have any motivation to change things; he just doesn't seem to realise that he can.

If he did have an accident at school - I am certain that he would stoically tolerate the consequences of being teased and being shown up, without expressing any emotion, accepting that is part of life, a not very nice bit, but something that has to be put up with just like a lot of other parts of his life He seems to be unaffected by things that you would expect DC's to be disappointed or upset about - not in an unconcerned, oblivious way, but in a resigned, here we go again kind of way.

He is very, very quick to say what he thinks people want to hear in all aspects of his life - even admitting that he has damaged something when he clearly wasn't involved. When DP has spoken to him about it, he says he thinks he should do that because he will get into more trouble if he disagrees with an adult! I think that may have been part of the problem when talking about things to the GP - DP said that the GP was asking leading questions; "do you have diarrhoea every day?" rather than "how often do you have diarrhoea?", so DSS just nodded because that's what he thought the right answer was.

As for writing it down - there is no way he has the understanding or skill to do that!

I've been really careful not to compare his development to my own DD (who is 3 years older) - I know that boys and girls develop at different rates, and if there was concern about his development, the school would have picked up on it, wouldn't they?

I know it sounds like I'm making excuses for him now - maybe that's why I am at the end of my tether, because I am so out of my depth with him! Based on my experience, it does feel sometimes as if he is a much younger child -but he is entitled to the respect and independence that comes with his age, which leaves him without some of the basic practical and emotional support that he seems to need.

I have gone down the route that sashh has been talking about ie let my ds getting on with cleaning himself, getting change etc... even though, just like your dss, I am finding he will be OK to stay in dirty clothes rather than getting change. In his case, I think he can't be bothered and he has had that sort of problems for so long that I don't think he can remember a time when he didn't have problems with soiling.

I do think though that he really needs to be seen by a specialist. 'Chronic diarrhoea' can be very innocent, a symptom of stress, linked with diet or be linked with something like Chron's disease. That's why I think you should ask to be referred to a specialist if your GP hasn't been able to understand the cause in more than 8 months.
I also think he does need to accept this has to be sorted out. In Timandra's case, she obviously know what is causing the pain and also if this is an issue to wait or not. Atm, there is no diagnosis as such therefore, no idea whether there IS a need for intervention or not. And at 9yo, I don't think he will be able to make that sort of decision.

OP I wouldn't worry whether you are dealing with him in ways that are appropriate to his 'real' age. What you need to do is to support him in a way that is appropriate FOR HIM. If he needs more support, then so be it. That's totally fine.

He seems to have learnt that things happened to him and he has no power over them. Also that you are suppose to say only the 'right' thing, not what IS (the truth) or what is right for HIM.
Have they noticed that at school too?What does his teacher think?

I'm sorry I've created more problems rather than solving any.

My DD has Asperger's syndrome so she isn't particularly good at the self care thing but I know that many of my friends fully expect their 9 year old children to shower, dress, etc independently.

My DD also does the saying what people want to hear thing which causes her a great deal of anxiety when she can't tell people she has a problem or disagrees with them. She rarely thinks through the consequences of her words. It is a hard one to tackle because many professionals choose to take the child at face value and ignore the protests of the parents.

I have the luxury of being able to wait for my daughter's condition to become worse before anyone intervenes and the support of her surgeons to do so. If you really think your DSS won't recognise that he has a problem at all then someone else needs to do something on his behalf. I would keep him fully informed about it though.

Do you have other concerns about his social/communication skills or about the level of his mood? I wonder if the continence is part of a larger neurodevelopmental issue or even a symptom of depression. A child should not come across so flat and resigned as you describe.

I think perhaps his parents should approach the GP to have a conversation without him present. Suggest that they ask him or her to consider making a referral to a developmental or community paediatrician or maybe to the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service (CAMHS).

Actually I think you are right Timandra, I would consider too a referral to a development paed.

Firstly, sympathies, prolonged soiling is stressful for all involved, child and parents, and I appreciate as sm you are dealing with this without having input into the medical process, so it will be extra frustrating.

I do agree with other posters that:-
1)many people find discussing continence issues embarassing, so, annoying as it is, try not to see DSS lies about this as naughty, but as a sign of difficulty coping with an unpleasant situation. the other lies you describe sound posssibly due to anxiety/him trying to second guess what will please the adults.
2)a typical 9 year old should be able to shower/clean himself independently. and if he is placid and quiet at school (i.e. not posing behavioural issues) it's very easy indeed for him to slip the net in terms of any social communication problems.
3)Agree with looking for onward referral - at very least to continence nurse, if not gastro specialist and/or developmental paed
4)has anyone rule out constipation/impaction, as this is probably the most common cause of soiling, and medication can improve matters relatively quickly.
5)I think given his immaturity for his age, any sort of food diary etc needs to be completed by his parents as far as is practicable.

I would guess that it's not lying so much as denial - if he doesn't own up to it happening, then it hasn't happened.

Poor kid. He must be so mortified. Not being able to control your poo is one of the ultimate taboos. He must despair of ever being like everyone else.

Mrsjewing. What the bloody hell are you talking about!

Actually what we did with ds was to ask him to put a cross on the calendar each time he was soiling himself or going to the loo (being constipated, it was important to know he was going everyday).
He was much younger than your dss but it worked well (as long as reminded to do it iyswim)

I don't understand why some posters think he is lying out of embarrassment seeing as op has said he lies all the time about all sorts of things. Surely then the problem is that he has a problem with lying and this just so happens to be one of the things he has lied about.

Just read your most recent post op, i agree that a referal to a development pediatrician would be a good idea.

Poo my best guess is that there are two issues here that actually linked together.
It might be that the 'lying issue' (which as another poster has highlighted might not be lying as such but a protection mechanism due to other issues) can be solved/lessened for this specific problem. This might then mean he will help for his gastro issues.
That would be already a really good start!

I tend to agree with a lot of what has been posted here; I think a development paediatrician appointment is an excellent idea - or at least, some sort of onward referral for the digestive problems that he seems to be suffering from -but of course, as a SM, my opinion, even if I express it, is of no consequence!

When DP first took DSS to the GP about this, the GP diagnosed him with anxiety as he was suffering from other anxiety symptoms as well. There is loads of background which make a diagnosis of anxiety quite reasonable under the circumstances - acrimonious divorce of his parents, sibling bullying, unstable home life etc.
The GP referred DSS to a Youth Councillor, and he did seem to become a lot more relaxed after a few sessions, but his mum disagreed with the diagnosis and raised the issue of food intolerance or possible coeliac disease with the GP, so the GP recommended that a food diary was kept as well.

DSS was asked every day - have you had a poo? What was it like? and because he said it was "normal", it seemed to confirm the GP's diagnosis and eliminate he possibility of a link to his diet. It was only when DP and I realised that he was still experiencing loose stools (8 months after the origional GP appt) that DP asked him about it and he admitted that he made up the answers for the diary and it had never gone away, he has it every other day and sometimes can go weeks at a time without a "normal" poo. He never goes at school, though?

The GP has now requested more blood tests, including the one for coeliac, which is something that DSS mum has raised again - it's not at all likely from what I understand, because if I understand it correctly, it would have affected DSS growth and weight?

Anyway, the bloods will be back next week - and then, well, I don't know what happens next?

I have a relative who consistently lies about her condition and treatment. She lies to family, consultants, nurses, doctors, has lied in the food diary, and blames the hospital for making her ill. She refuses to accept that she has the condition despite being diagnosed 30+ years ago. As a result her condition has worsened, she has had countless operations, nearly died on more than one occasion, and now has far more complications and medication than her situation should warrant. Other people with her condition lead a normal life; she cannot.

I really can't offer you any solutions as I don't have experience of this kind of thing, but looking at my relative, please, please help your DP and DS tackle it now.

I agree with whoever said he needs to learn to grow up and tell the truth.

Of course it's embarrassing, but as long as the people around him deal with accidents with no fuss (and sympathy, it must be horrible for him) then he should learn to confess when he leaves the bathroom in a state.

I think there need to be consequences for lying, basically.

Bleeding 'eck. The OP comes on asking for advice to work with her DP re a family members lying which affecting a medical issue and people tell her to butt out of the child's life.

He visits the house because his father lives there. Should her DP never get involved with anything related to her DD?

The mind boggles.

endoftether My DS is almost 8 and has had similar problems and is now on laxido (same as movicol) daily. He gets constipated despite a good diet and does have some allergy problems which may or may not contribute. He used to smear and I think that has been because he was embarrassed to admit what was happening. I think the fact your clearing up and not making a fuss is brilliant and helpful not interferrring at all.
I can also relate to the 'lying'. My DS also seems to say something rather than nothing over some things. Best one was when asked what his new teacher was like after transfer day - it ranged from young, fun, boring and strict. She is young! Mostly this was because we wanted an answer but he actually is just struggling with the fact it's change iyswim?

I am getting there with DS by telling him over and over it's best to tell the truth than lie because lies get you into trouble and the trth can help you deal with a situation.

Please PM me if you want to. Best of luck, you sound lovely btw.

I know of a couple of people who have this sort of a reaction to chilli. I don't suppose you use that in cooking at all, do you?