Stroppy with school friends (v. long)

[DeWe]

Dd2 (age 8yo) can be charming. She's one of these children who goes to the park and finishes swearing undying love for a friend she's just made. She goes to various activities after school and has made strong friends that she's keeps up with, and is lovely with them. She says the right things, looks after them, comforts them and helps them.

However, although she was like this at preschool and reception at school, now she's really struggling with friendships at school. And it's her fault. She is very confident, plus being a drama queen that can turn the tears on. She would regard a large number of children as her friends, but she can be really quite nasty to them.

Part of it is that she will tell tales on friends (eg "she pushed in")-but do the same herself. She likes to win and be the best-and this comes out in how she plays. (eg if she has a race it goes: she wins = "I win"; she just loses = "we drew"; she loses badly = "It didn't count/wasn't fair because ")
If she doesn't get her own way I have a strong suspicion that she turns the tears on, then the others feel blackmailed into doing it her way.
She also can't seem to handle more than one friend. So if she's playing with one and another comes up she will either walk straight off with one, or purposely ignore (in a nasty way iyswim) the other.
She also blames everyone else. So if she's in trouble for talking she'll pipe up with it not being her fault-everyone else's for distracting her.
She is very generous with them though. Whenever we go on holiday she spends all her money on presents for her friends.

Her teacher last year said that it wasn't so much what she said, but how she said it. She will say things in an aggressive or sulky way so it's clear she doesn't mean something nice.

She's changed school (into juniors) and I talked to her about it being a fresh start and how she had a really good chance to make good. I think she managed it at the beginning, but now it's all falling away again in the last term and a half.

I have talked and talked with her over the last couple of years. We've done star charts (very difficult as it's mostly school), roll play, talking about feelings, writing thoughts/ideas down... she can do it fine, as long as it's not school friends. If I'm there and she does something and I catch her and say something she'll either go sulky or angry.

I've tried giving her extra attention, taking her out to talk about friends, inviting children back, letting her take stuff in to share, getting angry and taking home early when she behaves like this. Nothing seems to work.

When we're talking, she can see what I mean. I think she's very miserable, and that makes her defensive and so she gets worse, but I'm at a loss as to how to help. It's a very big school she's at now and they don't have the staff to manage friendships over lunch etc.

I've also noticed that she's kind of withdrawing from trying to be friends in some ways. For example at the school fair, most of the children were going round in friendship groups. Two to four years ago that would have been her. Now she went round on her own, despite girls who she'd regard as close friends being around, and probably wouldn't have objected to her joining them.

She doesn't seem to know how to compromise for the sake of a friend. I probably compromise too much, but she won't compromise at all. So if she'd joined a friend at the school fair and the friend had wanted to go to stall A first and she wanted to go to B, she would have either insisted they went to B or walked off and gone their separate ways.

It's very difficult because up until the end of reception she had the social skills of a much older person. She knew how to say the right thing, to negotiate, to compliment them, make others feel good about themselves and was very strong on empathy-she'd be the first there to comfort a friend. And she can still do this-just not with school friends.

I don't like to talk too much about what's happening at school, because she's a real drama queen. If I suggest things are going badly then she will take off with facts interwoven with imagination. So I don't know, and don't know how I can find out, if there are issues at school I am unaware of, because she's quite capable of producing a mountain out of a molehill if I probe.

So any suggestions? I feel I've exhausted my ideas. I don't know how to help her now. She's asking me to help her, but if I say anything at the time she reacts badly. If I tell her afterwards it doesn't seem to sink in.

It would seem that she can make friends elsewhere because she isn't seeing so much of them and it is much easier for short bursts- it is the day in, day out, ones that she has the problem with.
Have you discussed the problem with her teacher?

Have you other children?

Firstly, I think it's brilliant that you're so honest about her shortcomings- from a teacher's pov I'd say this is over half the battle, and as a teacher, seeing as the problem is mainly at school, I'd be expecting some support with it. I have had similar problems with girls (especially in early juniors) but parents are in denial and you can't do anything to help. I would try speaking to class teacher?

Having an 8 year old dd myself, I think a lot of the trates you mention are present in many children around the same age.

It seems that her big issues are when playing with more than one child at a time and unwillingness to compromise. Could you take her and a couple of friends out and create situations where she has to compromise - say in picking a cafe or park to play in. She might be more confident and willing to back down with you there?

I would speak to the school - lessons are full of opportunities for group work and letting others take their turn. If her teachers are made aware of her social problems , they should be willing to help in a classroom settings? Have the teachers mentioned that their is a problem?

Traits , I knew trates didn't look right.

My dd can be like this and worse! Particularly about the winning losing thing! But she has ADHD so its doubly worse! A very good book I found was The Unwritten Rules of Friendships. It was reasonably expensive but I found it invAluable. You work through it bit by bit and give your child tasks of what they can work on each week to help with their friendships. Just simple things like saying/doing things differently. Once you've mastered one thing you move onto the next, I bought my dd treats for everything she managed to accomplish

No probs :) it also gives instructions as to what /how kids should behave with acquaintainces, friends , closer friends. Which I found really useful as my dd was forever inviting people to tea that she didn't even know!!!

Hothead, I'm hoping that some more parents of similar aged girls will read this thread as I suspect that some of her behaviour is fairly typical of 8yo girls.

I can't be sure but I help out (as a parent) in a year 1 class and see this type of thing in several of the children (mainly the girls, that's not me judging, I'm just saying what I see).

I think it's great that you want up address this, and as others have said your insight into the reality of the situation is really beneficial. However, I'm not sure that your DD is particularly unusual.

It sounds like you're already doing an awful lot in terms of helping her to understand when her behaviour is inappropriate. I use social stories with DD2 who has Asperger's Syndrome, and has problems with compromises too.

Rather than telling her what she should do I will tell the story of the event from the other child's point of view. I literally use the first person as in "I am a girl in Mrs X's class and I like playing with Minitimandra. Today we were playing and....."

I sometimes come up with two alternative endings and ask DD2 to choose which one she would have chosen if she were the other child. We try to think of words to express her own feelings and those of the other child to see if they were the same.

It helps her to understand that if she wants friends they have to get something positive out of the experience too.

Could you find some ways not to compromise with her at home, perhaps playing a game. Explain how you feel about not being allowed to choose, win, etc and link this with how her school friends might feel in a similar situation. help her to learn different ways to manage or express her feelings when she has to give in.

I also think speaking to the teacher is a good idea. The school can also help with social stories and modelling appropriate behaviour. Social skills are an important part of the curriculum for all children, not just those with SEN. They may just need you to raise it before they realise she needs support with these skills.

I'm not sure I can help much, but my 10 y/o is very similar. I didn't find the Unwritten Rules of Friendship that helpful - we talked about it a lot, but dd is also just really, really rubbish at compromise.

Thanks everyone.

She's my middle dc. Older sister (who is very much quieter, finds making friends hard, but then they're friends for life) and younger brother who will play with anyone as long as they are happy to roll round on the ground shouting "poo" at intervals. She doesn't get missed out on attention, she's very good at wangling her own time with me.

She does get anxious. To the point of feeling/being sick. And she's sensitive in that she will go into floods of tears on something very minor. She doesn't have sensory issues at all, I think. Both my other 2 dc are much more sensory sensitive.

She also is missing her left hand and she is very, very sensitive to any comments that could be negative on that. Otoh she is quite capable of using it as an excuse too.

I've ordered the book. Will see what she makes of it. Might help. She loves reading.

I'd discussed it several times with the teacher last year. She tried to help, but it was more minimising impact after the event in most cases. Not much a teacher can do after dd2 has shouted at someone for pushing in the line... after she's just pushed in herself.
It was a new school this year (juniors) and she seemed to be much better at the beginning of the year (new start etc.) and I was hopeful she was better. Then in the last few weeks she's come out with a couple of things (in a sheepish kind of way) which showed that she was behaving again in this way.

It's much harder to talk to the teachers-I don't usually see the junior school teachers from week to week. I asked at parent evening and was told that she was confident and had lots of friends, but the report came out last week and she has a couple of comments on it which certainly imply she's behaving unpleasantly again.
I don't think there's any point in talking to this year's teacher. She's a bit wishy-washy and not particularly good at following things up. Next year's teacher will be new to the school, and I know nothing about.

I know other girls who behave like this, but generally in bursts. And most of them are confident and popular, iyswim. She does seem to be disliked by children she would regard as quite close friends.
There's a child in her class who is very confident and precocious, she orders everyone around in a similar way-the other children love her.

I'll give an example of something that happened a couple of weeks ago when I was around school. She came up with a group and one fo the girls was holding a scrap of paper with writing on. I said "ooh, what does that say?" The friend said "It's a secret. I don't want to say"
Dd2 promptly pulled her hand away and read it out. It wasn't important, I wasn't that interested.
But I saw the glance that went round the rest of the group and the other child was upset. When I said to dd2 (quietly so the others didn't hear) that what she'd done was nasty and how would she feel in that situation. She went into a sulk and said "it wasn't really a secret, I wouldn't mind".

I think there's an aspect in which the more vunerable she feels, the more domineering she behaves. And of course the more domineering she is, the less people like her and the more vunerable she feels.

In year R she was put in a form with lots of alpha girls in, and there was a lot of jostling to the top.
Unfortunately there was problems with party invites in year R. There was a child with a similar name and for some reason they all seemed to call them both by the other name. When party invites came out they then went to the other child.
I know that this was sometimes a mistake because we had a few parents come up after the party and apologise. I wonder sometimes if she developed like this to hide how upset she was.

She can see the way to behave when I talk to her. Social stories don't seem to help as she knows the theory, just won't do it in practice. It's almost the closer friend they are the nastier she can be. She can empathise. She does empathise well out of school. Has done so from an early age. But at times with her school friends she seems to think they don't have feelings, or at any rate their feelings are secondary to hers.

Oh dear, it's long again. Sorry.

I think that the teacher could help quite a lot-but it assumes that you get a helpful one. I should at least try and see the new teacher very early on in September.

It does sound as though she needs help doesn't it? As though she is using inappropriate strategies to control other children because she feels that something else is out of control.

I hope you find The Unwritten Rules book useful.

As others have said, good teachers will want to help you, and they will appreciate your clear-sightedness.