Bully in the community

[Louisa]

Has anyone experienced anything like this? A woman I used to be friendly with has a child who had a tendency to hit certain younger children and babies. When it first happened our children were both about one and a half. It is still going on as well as very aggressive behaviour in his peer group as well.

My problem with this is that when it first happened she asked me what I would do about it. I certainly felt that what she was doing was wrong - she spoke to him about it in the same tone of voice that she used when she praised him or gave him other positive attention. I felt and still do that she should should have been very firm with him, showed that there was a big difference between this behaviour and positive behaviours (of course) and if necessary, showed that she was angry with him. But I didn't have the guts to say anything of the sort to her, and sympathised with her "problem".

I have two problems with this now. One is that I feel guilty at not having said what I thought at the time, when the behaviour is still there.

The second problem is that I can't go to certain local functions with my younger child as I know this little boy is going to be there. I feel sorry for it but my blood runs cold at the sight of him, and I feel angry at the thought that I and some of my friends have also had to avoid things he will be present at and even taken their children out of the kindergarten he attended.

I went through a period of being very isolated and really needed to be able to go anything on at the local library, playgroups etc. and was seriously impeded by this problem. I couldn't contemplate taking a child into a situation where they would definitely be hurt.

I feel that it comes down to his mother's perceptions of his rights over those of several adults and children.

Finally, I know that it is up to me to say something, but what? I feel I'd have to go out of my way to engineer an opportunity to tell her my opinion, but the whole situation still rankles quite badly. I'm really looking for people to tell me of similar experiences, but advice/ support too if poss.

Tigermoth makes an interesting point. At home you have a range of strategies, time out, removal of treats/stars from behaviour chart, including bawling out!!!! Things that you can't do in public, I may act like a fishwife at home (though not the first/ideal choice and I try really hard not to actually swear) but not in the street, if I can help it. I just cringe when I hear mums roaring "Oy get 'ere NOW/will you f...ing do as your told" etc. Also there are things like temper tantrums. On your living room carpet you can let them kick and scream and bang their head on the floor while you go out to the garden for a ciggy to calm down, but you can't do that with a 2yr old on a pavement in the shopping centre. Nor can you bawl them out in the middle of storytime at the library. TG DD is now 5 and mostly beyond that, but believe me I have been that mum with the whirling dervish child that knocks every other 2yo over as they go from toy to toy. I began to feel my middle name was Sorry and dds was Naughty. DH got to the point where behaviour was so embarrassing he didn't want to go to playgroups. I figured that hiding away wasn't the answer we had to persevere otherwise dd wouldn't learn to behave. It just seemed to get easier once we could communicate, or rather negotiate.

I think you make some interesting points Tigermoth. But I do have first hand experience of such a mother who never disiplines her child and that child is a very nasty piece of work . The mother in question happens to be a friend of mine.

A few yrs ago , when my son was 18mths and hers almost 4 , we were sitting having a cuppa in her house and my ds was standing on her couch peering over the back of it. Her son then procceeded to charge across the room pick up my son by the bum and hurl him over the back of the couch head first!
It happened so quickly . I was horrified and really didnt know if my son would have broken his neck as I ran to get him.

Imagine my horror as I comforted my screaming child and both mother and son were giggling.
"Oh sam you are silly" she said in a cheery voice.
She soon changed her tune when she noticed that in my haste I had spilt my tea all over her carpet!

She sprung into action cleaning her carpet. Whilst I wondered if a trip to the hospital was called for.

I have never come so close to hitting a child as that day.

Another time we were in the park and her child was kicking sand into oter childrens faces. His mother was aware of this but told me to ignore him and pretend we couldnt see.
Eventually other mothers removed their crying children and the little brat had the sandpit to himself. GGrrrrrr.

There have been so many examples. This brat is now 10 and still the same. I avoid him at all costs and he has never seen my dd who is now 20mths. He now has a brother who is also nasty and the cycle continues.

The sofa incident you describe does sound bad, Callie, and being told to ignore a child throwing sand strikes me as odd. You say there are have been more incidents like these, so less chance of them being temporary misunderstandings. Yet you say you are still friends with this mother and I take it you have been for at least six years, looking at the timescale in your message. Again I'm curious (sorry!). Has she never ever talked about discipline and her son with you even in the vaguest of terms? Have you never been able to at least indicate that you feel upset? Does she have any idea at all?

I have been lucky in not encountering this sort of situation, I'm sure of that. And I suppose that around 4 years old you can begin to say a child is being knowingly nasty and vicious - it's not quite the random lack of control exhibited by a younger toddler.

Madmaz - you do not have to 'bawl your child out' if they are being naughty in public, but it doesn't mean you should let them get away with it either. If you don't let them behave naughtily at home, why should it be any different when you are out and about? In the incident at storytime, this mother and her son were left to happily enjoy storytime whilst me and my dd had to leave the library in tears - so now that child will have learnt that if he attacks another child, that child will be removed and he will have that activity to himself, the same with Callie's experience at the sandpit.
My dd is now at the age where she has discovered tantrums and tries them out every week at the supermarket, but we do not treat her tantrums any differently in a public place than we would do at home, we pick her up firmly and hold her until she calms down, no matter how much she screams. If we let her get away with it once, she will soon grasp that being naughty in a public place is the way to go as mummy and daddy are too embarrassed to do anything about it.

It's the same with Tigermoth's point. That woman in the library may well discipline her son at home, but what use is that if he is allowed to get away with that behaviour outside? Our children should not be made to suffer for the few very misbehaved ones.

Hmmm... I think that what MadMaz is getting at (and me definitely)is that you simply do not have the same range of discipline options when you are out, even if you are itching to use them.

You can't send your child to their room for time out,(OK you may be able to send them somewhere quiet if you are in public, but then you have to think about their safety....)you don't have star charts to hand, can't remove a favourite toy (unless your child has a favourite something on them at the time) etc etc. Also if emotions are running high, IMO you simply can't talk to them properly.

But as you say LisaV, you can, and probably should, take them away from the situation for a while or go home if they are very out of hand or deliberately hurting another child.

I just feel that you can't always do all your disciplining the very second a child is being naughty in public. Sometimes you can - it can be a gut reaction - but not inevitably.

If my son plays up when out, he definitely gets told off at the time, but a full punshiment might happen later. For the message to sink in properly, I really may not want an audience. And if I decide on discipline after the event, my son is certainly under no doubt that his punishment is caused by him being naughty in public.

Yes tigermoth I have often asked myself why Iam friends with Jan. In fact I have all but cut ties with her now. She calls me every so often but that is about it.
I havent really said much to her about his lack of disipline as I hate confrontation and If I started I wouldnt stop. She is very aware though that her son is v v naughty and nasty. She just makes excuses for him.
For example When her son was 6 and mine 4 we took them to a local plyarea with a ball pond. Also with us was her 2yr old.
Whilst she gabbed away to me I was watching them like a hawk and she knew why it was for the same reason she wasnt watching them and was trying to distract me from watching them.
Anywaymy ds brushed against her 2yr old whilst playing and he fell over. my son said sorry and helped him to his feet but he was fine and carried on playing. To my utter horror her brat then ran over jumped on my child and started punching and kicking him in an absolute rage. I immediatley ran over and shouted at him to stop I told him he was very naughty and said to his mother. "i cant believe he just did that".
The brat screamed "HE hurt my brother" and Jan turned to me and said he was only sticking up for his little brother. I left the play area in disgust and she called me later that night to apologise but also made clear again that he was sticking up for his brother. It was almost as if she was proud of him.

Since then my son has rarely been in contact with her son in fact I only ever saw her when he was in school.

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RobinW and Callie, thanks for posting. Your messages help shed more light on this subject for me at least. If must be so frustrating to know the parent, especially if they are a friend of yours, is not going to control their child.

RobinW, I'm being very nosey here again, but why was that girl's mother so proud of not disciplining her, to the point of telling yo this? I don't understand her reasoning.

Also as for discipline after the incident, just a quick point - I suppose age comes in to play a bit here - a semi-speaking 3 year old may not understand a later talking to or punishment as well as a 5-year old who can be reasoned with more easily.

Callie, it sounds like your friend let her need for your company override her responsibilty to control her children. Speaking as the mother of a boy who was, and still is at times, naughty and attention-seeking in company, it can create a real tension when faced with a friend I want to talk to and a child who expects constant adult input(not just control and discpline but also conversation, playing with, etc etc).

I think you did right to concentrate on the children. An awful situation I used to find myself in, when my son was younger, was being with friends who wanted my attention, too, and expected it because their own children were getting less demanding as they grew up. I felt damned if I gave my son lots of attention as in 'you're letting him manipulate you and you must let him see you have boundaries and need adult time' and damned if I didn't, because then he could be naughty. I used to feel so pulled both ways! - and would end up stressed and exhausted - not the best state of mind to make decisions regarding on-the-spot disciplin and control.

Anyway, got to dash. Will continue to read this board with interest.

Excuse spelling mistakes - forgot to press preview!!

Thanks Tigermoth yes I did mean that options are more limited when out and about. Though yes LisaV I agree that deliberately hurting a child - as opposed to carelessness/thoughtlessness which was more what I had to deal with - has to be dealt with to stop children thinking that they can get away with it. I have though in the past been more lenient with tantrums by doing the ignoring bit or scooping her up and out...

Tigermoth I can really relate to that thing about being with your child plus a adult friends who are wanting your company. I find it particularly difficult when friends who don't have kids invite us to their house for , say, lunch, and say "please bring the kids too" and they really do mean it! They just don't realise it is no fun at all for us to take our one and two year old to a non childproof house as they have to be watched every second to check they don't damage/ mess anything! This means we continually turn down social invitations or else feel obliged to say "it's easier if you come over to our house..."

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oh Jasper how true. Same principle applies to visits to and from old relatives.
Have to say as a result our social circle has decreased somewhat. We only tend to see friends without children rarely, and then in our house after 8pm or in the summer in a suitable pub with a garden between 2 and 7pm.

Before we had kids, some of our relations would come to visit and bring their children, thus dh and myself would frantically try to make our house as childproof as possible. However it was always us who had to watch their kids like hawks as they used our CD's as frisbees, poked their fingers in the parrot's cage, waved the guitar over their heads, etc. Their parents would just laugh and say "Wait until you get one of your own!" No wonder we never wanted children!

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