Bully in the community

[Louisa]

Has anyone experienced anything like this? A woman I used to be friendly with has a child who had a tendency to hit certain younger children and babies. When it first happened our children were both about one and a half. It is still going on as well as very aggressive behaviour in his peer group as well.

My problem with this is that when it first happened she asked me what I would do about it. I certainly felt that what she was doing was wrong - she spoke to him about it in the same tone of voice that she used when she praised him or gave him other positive attention. I felt and still do that she should should have been very firm with him, showed that there was a big difference between this behaviour and positive behaviours (of course) and if necessary, showed that she was angry with him. But I didn't have the guts to say anything of the sort to her, and sympathised with her "problem".

I have two problems with this now. One is that I feel guilty at not having said what I thought at the time, when the behaviour is still there.

The second problem is that I can't go to certain local functions with my younger child as I know this little boy is going to be there. I feel sorry for it but my blood runs cold at the sight of him, and I feel angry at the thought that I and some of my friends have also had to avoid things he will be present at and even taken their children out of the kindergarten he attended.

I went through a period of being very isolated and really needed to be able to go anything on at the local library, playgroups etc. and was seriously impeded by this problem. I couldn't contemplate taking a child into a situation where they would definitely be hurt.

I feel that it comes down to his mother's perceptions of his rights over those of several adults and children.

Finally, I know that it is up to me to say something, but what? I feel I'd have to go out of my way to engineer an opportunity to tell her my opinion, but the whole situation still rankles quite badly. I'm really looking for people to tell me of similar experiences, but advice/ support too if poss.

message withdrawn

Louisa - I had a friend who had a ds the same age as my eldest ds who used to bite other children. I know many toddlers do this, but he was still doing this at three and a half when most others have grown out of it. I'm sure the main reason for this was the fact that his mum never really told him off , she too would tell him off in the same tone of voice that she used to praise him. At playschool, as my ds played with him the most, it was inevitably him who got bitten the most, sometimes with quite nasty ones that took a few days to fade. Even though she was my friend and I was really p**d off about it, I just couldn't bring myself to say anything to her about it. At the same time, I didn't want my son to keep getting hurt in this way, so I decided to just keep him away from this boy. I put him into a different playschool and then politely refused her invitations to get together, or any situations where she might be with him. I know that I'm not giving any constructive advice, but I do sometimes think that avoidance is the best policy, I don't think that you should put yourself under pressure to speak up, as Robinw says you may well get a hostile recption even when you think you're being tactful and helpful. I know it's not easy at first, but do you think that you could find some different play situations for your children, where you know that this child won't be, it will take the stress off you and is a good opportunity for you and them to make new friends. Good luck!

I think that Chanelno5 and Robinw have, as is their wont, come up with some good advice based on comparable experiences. However, I must say that it makes me feel quite alarmed and angry that you (and presumably others) are driven away from community events like this. I agree that talking to his mother probably isn't a great idea; it sounds like she's either completely oblivious to his behaviour or feeling utterly ashamed and helpless around disciplining him. I think she'd probably find it difficult to hear what you want to say to her.
I do think it's worth considering disciplining the child yourself- as and when his behaviour affects your child- and getting like minded adults to do the same when it affects their children. This is the approach I take with a similarly difficult child and mother who frequent ALL our local events for kids. I like the mum but quite honestly blanch at the sight of her 2 elder sons who are absolute nightmares in terms of pushing, hitting, screaming, snatching toys, trampling babies and younger kids, etc etc ad infinitem! I didn't want to stop going to local events so decided that the only way to cope was to intervene myself if their behaviour impacted on my kids.
I think it's worked ok because I strongly feel my kids (like all the other kids) deserve the chance to play unmolested and I'm mostly quite confident with disciplining my own kids. I just try and apply the same sorts of boundaries to this kid- eg "No hitting! I'm sure X will give you the toy when he's finished" then physically prevent violence if necessary! After a week or so of this sort of pro activeness I realised that other mums were doing this too- there was a kind of tacit understanding that we couldn't let these kids ruin our drop-ins and playgroups. Because we felt a bit sorry for the Mum having such handfuls though, we did/do try to limit knowing looks, rolling eyes and shocked expressions as far as possible!
I think it's worth trying this- the worst that could happen is that the Mum felt upset and offended- not nice- but she might start facing the fact that her babe needs some boundaries. If she's truly the oblivious type she probably won't even notice. Good luck Louisa- I hope you sort something out. It's just not fair for you and your child to be isolated in this way.

I agree with scummymummy. Dont let this stop you going to playgroups etc.if the child goes anywhere near yours interverne straight away. Over react and if it looks like hes going to hit your child say a loud AH AH AH Naughty!and remove your child to another part of the room. The mother should soon get the message.

I definitely agree that intervention is a good way out of this, with some strategic avoidance thrown in.

IMO other parents disciplining your children is something you naturally accept whe they're school age, otherwise all those after-school clubs and events and brownie/cub activites could not exist. However there's this big gap between babyhood/early toddlerhood and here. For the first year or two people IMO accept that it is the parents who know best in the way they potty train/ sleep train their children and deal with early tantrums. And they let the child off the hook a lot because they are so young. People tend not to intervene. But then at some point when you're out in public, you realise that your child's behaviour impacts on others in a way they have a right to object to. And they very much object to the way you control your child into the bargain. It can come as a bit of a shock! The first time I told off another parent's child, it was a real milestone, but now I'll do it without a second thought. So bite the bullet, Loiuse and go for it!

I think some strategic avoidance is a good idea, too. But as scummy says, it's very unfair that you avoid community events for the sake of a toddler.

So, can you pinpont any circumstances that will trigger bad behaviour - perhaps limiting the time you attend so as to avoid the children getting over tired and over excited? If you do this I think you should consider coming clean with the mother about this, blaming the general situation so you can tactfully bypass the problem child ie 'I'm only staying an hour, because much as I'd like to stay longer, I'm sure that the children will get so excited that they'll be tears before bedtime. Isn't it a bind? I'll be so glad when we can all trust them to get on with each other for longer etc' You might even be able to get your friend to talk about her discipline problems with you again.

As for her quiet tone of voice. Louisa, I take it you are not expecting this parent to shout at her child for primarily your sake? I assume you don't mean shouting anyway, just a very firm 'stop it' etc. But of course you need an apology if you have been wronged, at least from the mother, and hopefully from the child. And of course the mother must say something to her child, but IMO this is when things get difficult. First and foremost punishment must be effective and appropriate - it can't just be done for effect. If I tell off my son in public in a way that I hope will appease other people, my son usually susses this out and gets worse! Sometimes a gentle approach is what you need to diffuse raised emotions. That doesn't mean discipline doesn't take place later. IMO the most effective discipline is often a one-to-one thing, and not done in the heat of the moment. Unfortuantely social convention means you are unlikely to say to the wronged parent 'sorry if I seem to be treating this lightly. I assure you I am not and when we get home I will be talking to my son again/taking away his favourite video/adding a black mark to his star chart etc etc.' So blame social convention too!

Lousia, I'm not meaning to let this parent off the hook, honest! She could be just very lazy about control. Poor you! I'm just saying that it's unlikely you know the full story and, IMO, you can't expect her to dole out a full measure of discipline in front of you.

Lastly, even when my son was a toddler, he would play up when he was with some adults more than others. It was not solely to do with the friendship he had with their children. I have two friends, each with a child whom my son gets on well with. The first parent, IMO, does not really and truly like my son. She's very fair with him and good with children generally, but really doesn't warm to my son at all. That's life. The other parent, IMO, really does like my son and enjoys his company for what it is. From the age of three my son has consistantly offered his better side to the parent who likes him and his worse side to the parent who doesn't. So of course I have to dicipline my son far more when we're with the hostile parent. What I'm saying is, if you only see the brat in the child, then that might just be what you'll get.

Louisa, I feel my last post ended on too harsh a note, sorry - not very supportive of me, was it?

Just to add, you say you feel guilty about not telling your friend how you felt when she talked about her discipline problem. This subject is such a minefield, I think it's very understandable that you kept quiet. If it really makes you feel bad, can you let a suitable child care book to do the talking for you? Could you bring one along the next time you see her, enthuse about its helpfulness, say there's a really good chapter on behaviour (if you can get away with it) and offer to lend it to her? Not very subtle, I know, but a possibility?

I do agree in principle with what you're saying, Tigermoth, why should your child have to miss out on things because of the actions of another, of course they shouldn't, it's very unfair. It's just that over the years I've learnt to back down where possible, to prevent things getting out of hand. I've seen arguments break out at toddler groups between mothers telling each others kids off, and they weren't pleasant, there are some scary people out there! As you say, it is a real minefield. I don't really feel comfortable telling other people's kids off either, so I tend to avoid the difficult situations to save my stress levels. Now I've got quite a wide circle of friends whose kids play ok with mine and I tend to stick with them, that way you can enjoy yourself too without worrying what the little darlings are getting up to.

Yes, I see what you mean, Chanelno5. I have to admit I do feel awkward when singling out one child for a telling off - and really, really awkward if the parent can hear me!! I suppose I get round this by telling off the children as a group or as pair as in 'come on you two, no hitting or kicking, stop it now' etc etc, even if it's only one child (so far) who has been the hitter. If a parent gets uppity with you about your intervention, how about saying you could see a fight developing, and wanted to stop all round mayhem and retaliation - to protect her child from getting hit back?

Thanks everyone for supportive comments.

One thing I'd like to ask people in general, is on the subject of raised voice severe tones negatives in general.Is there anyone out there or does anyone know of anyone who thinks that children should never be spoken to severely, or told off? A friend of mine thinks that the time will come when shouting at children will be regarded as smacking is now. Perhaps I'll start a new conversation asking about this. I'd really like some insight into the possible philosophy behind this issue.

Tigermoth, you make some really interesting points. On the subject of tellings off to appease others, I know what you mean, if it's false children realise this. And I don't know the full story of what else she did, but I suspect not very much. She did go through a phase of keeping him away from one playgroup, but she didn't tell him why, so the sanction wasn't effective. I live in a fairly small community and I am pretty sure I would know about it if she had been using any other measures. I have heard other things about the family on the grapevine, but nothing re discipline.

Also, I didn't feel your comment about getting the brat you see was harsh at all, and I think its partly true, but I think it goes deeper. I think he sees the possibility of boundaries in me - I have once or twice, before we started to avoid him altogether, said "that was wrong of you" in a severe tone. I think he unconsciously wants to be given boundaries, so he comes up and yells in my ear or something when he sees me. I used to like him as much as any child, and could again.

Lastly, there is one good thing about bullying, I think it gives you a good measure of the institution/playgroup / kindergarten it takes place in, in that you can judge it by how bullying is dealt with.

I feel much better for talking about this by the way, thanks again. Also my circumstances have changed and there are lots of alternatives.

Louisa, I've come a bit late to this discussion but I have encountered a not dissimilar problem at my NCT group, where one of the boys is always lashing out at the other children. This is a very awkward scenario as all the mothers are good friends. My own tactic now is to get down on the floor when this particular boy is close to my own ds & get involved or overview the activity very closely. This obviously involves a degree of vigilance which is not hugely conducive to uninterrupted conversation but to be honest I've seen my ds thwacked too often to care anymore.
I have to say that I feel his mother's tactics are far too gentle. Again she reprimands him in the lightest of tones and makes no attempt to remove him from the situation. I personally hate shouting and raised voices. I have always hated being shouted at and therefore have rarely shouted at my ds, other than to attract his attention in dangerous situations. However, I think voice tone & body language are very significant when dealing with bad behaviour in children. My ds is in no doubt when I am displeased by his behaviour. I also think that there is a strong case to be made for removing the child from a situation in which they are behaving badly. My own ds is no angel and I am always quick to remove him when he is up to no good. I find sitting quietly away from the situation with a few words about not doing what he's doing works well.
Good luck with your own situation Louisa, I hope it will improve.

I read the previous messages with interest. Forgive me but aren't you all rather smug about your beautifully behaved children? Here's the story from the other side.

My 3 and a half year old son seems to have been born with a short fuse. He is normally a beautiful, loving boy and by and large he's fine ont to one but he is in constant trouble at school for hitting/pushing other children. The arguments usually seem to be about toys and using something first.

They tell him off, we tell him off (and we DO raise our voices!) we deprive him of treats for bad behaviour (he understands this but it doesnt seem to help in the actual moment when he loses it with another child), we also use a reward system for good behaviour. Again this is only mildly effective.

I dread taking him to/picking him up from school waiting for the report on his behaviour and braving the glares from other parents. I would love to have a beautifully behaved child so I could look down on parents who fail to discipline their children. I can't work magic though, much as I would like to, all I can do is carry on and hope he grows out of it.

So no, mums of hitters aren't always impervious to their children's behaviour even if you think we are.

No Barca, we're not smug, we are trying to offer advice & support to someone who finds themselves in a difficult situation.
If you look through some of the other Mumsnet threads you will find advice offered to people who find themselves in a similar situation to your own.
Don't be so quick to condemn us all!

Barca, my son was quite similar to yours at that age, but on this thread I decided not to go into it in huge detail, because it sounded like Louisa wanted support more than anything else. I do definitely agree with you that some parents of toddlers can be over judgemental ie my child is well behaved because I am a good parent, so that means your child is badly behaved because you're a bad parent. Especially if the parent has only one child. Parents with larger families can seem more tolerant. Plus, (speaking from my own experience)you start sending your toddler to nursery and naively think you will easily make friends with the parents - all in the same boat etc - and find that they are far more reserved than you had anticipated. And you can easily interpret that as hostility, unfounded or not as the case may be.

Anyway I think I've bored mumsnetters quite enough about my oldest son's antics when he was a toddler - it's all on some other threads (I keep hearing in my mind some of you saying oh no, it's that woman and her son again!)

Bugsy, I think you are so right when you say you have to make a conscious decision to sacrifice some adult interaction at toddler groups and closely supervise children instead. When my son was a baby, I could meet up with friends and their babies and give my son lots of physical attention while giving the adults my mental attention. By the time he was three, my son immediately knew if I was ignoring him in favour of one of my friends and would automatically play up and hit out on occasion.

I wish I had said to my friends at the time 'sorry I won't be able to give you my full attention - my son is going through a difficult phase and I'm going to have to watch him like a hawk' Striking a balance between giving him enough attention to ensure he behaved well, while also making it clear that he couldn't interrupt mummy every two seconds was an ongoing nightmare. I either left a friend looking p*** off with me in mid conversation, or my son got himself into trouble.

If my youngest son is the same, I intend to make a much clearer separation between adult's and children's meetings, seeing the adults alone for proper conversation time if that's what it takes to keep the peace.

Barca - Nobody is being smug about having well-behaved children here. As Tigermoth and Bugsy have already said most of us here (myself included) have contributed extensively to the threads on bad behaviour in our children. I could write a book on some of the problems I've had with mine, so believe me, I do sympathise with, and understand, how you are feeling. I've also had the feelings of dread going to pick up my ds from playschool, so I know how you feel sick with worry. My sister is still having problems with her 6 yr old ds despite all her best efforts, so I really know that having a badly behaved child is no reflection on you as a mother. Perhaps if you are feeling very stressed out about your son you could post a message on Mumsnet, as I can assure you, you would get a positive, sympathetic and helpful response.

Barca, sorry I sounded smug. I didn't realise it was coming across like that. Mine can be little buggers quite often. They usually save it for home rather than out.
I really really really wasn't trying to blame parents- it's often pot luck as much as parenting that seems to determine kids' behaviour, IMO. And especially with toddlers much of this sort of behaviour is completely normal developmentally speaking. It's just a matter of degree. I do think that people who are worried about their babes getting clobbered shouldn't feel bad about intervening though.

message withdrawn

Just to add my tuppence worth - I can understand your point Barca, it must be frustrating to be judged so on your child's behaviour. I think what the mumsnetters here are condemning though, are those little terrors who bully other kids and their parents do nothing to discipline them - this does not sound like you Barca so don't take what is said here so personally.

When I was at storytime in my library recently My dd (16 months) and me were sat next to another mother with her son (about 3). This little boy decided that he wanted to sit next to his mother so he got up, grabbed hold of my dd's hair, pulled it and her to the ground and raised his foot as if to kick her. My dd was screaming hysterically, I was absolutely shocked - it was so unprovoked! This mother muttered 'sorry' to me but did not say a word to her son. We sat away from after that but it spoiled storytime for me and dd. Then as we were leaving he jumped up and went for her again, arms and legs flailing as he tried to get her, his mum just caught him and carried on as if nothing had happened. I gave her such a look that she had to look away from me! I left the libary in tears, devestated that my baby had been hurt like that, by such a little brat!

Now Barca, you may be the exception, but 9 times out of 10 these kids are never disciplined by their parents when they have done the deed, or if they are their parents simply scream at them and/or hit them, teaching them how to be even more aggressive than they already are.

If you are having a problem with your son, why not read some of the previous threads? I think that Denise Knowles answered a mumsnetter's query recently about her son hitting and biting people.

He's a bully and what will happen when he's at school? I think you should tell her that as well as mentioning that bullying can and does cause suicide.

That's a bit harsh Jbr, we're talking about 3 year olds here, I am sure that Barca is doing her best to resolve the problem. How do you think your approach would work with a 3 year old anyway? "Look son, your behaviour may cause that child to kill themselves" - come off it!

Has anyone else noticed that it is nearly always boys mentioned on the bad/aggressive behaviour threads? I have got 2 boys and 1 girl and have noticed differences in their behaviour despite all being treated the same. I think nature makes them generally more, dare I say, silly and more physical than girls. My friends who have got 1 of each have noticed this too, and another who has got 3 girls thinks she 'got off lightly' when she sees all the boys playing their mad games together. We all really love our boys though and wouldn't swap them for the world, it's just sometimes their behaviour is quite difficult to deal with. What do other Mumsnetters think?

I can understand where Barca is coming from. I have had problems with my ds in the past so I know the frustration you feel as you just cannot understand why they behave as they do, and know that people are avoiding you and think that you are a bad mother (which, incidently no one does here). I can also appreciate how difficult it is to discipline your child in public when they hurt another child. On one hand, you want to show that you are sorry and are very cross with them, but on the otherhand, you get worried about being too strict, incase someone reports you. I can give you an example of this:- a friend's friend was unlocking her car to put her 3 children inside, when 2 of them ran off. Quickly, she had to lock the youngest in the car (as she couldn't run very fast holding him) and run, shouting after the other 2. They were in a car park at the time, so potentially very dangerous. They wouldn't come back to her, so when she finally caught them, she was very cross, shouted at them and frog marched them back to the car. The next day, she had a visit (can't remember who from exactly, possibly police or NSPCC) because someone had seen her, put 2 and 2 together made 5 and reported her. She was devastated, but also very angry, as they had put themselves in a dangerous situation so deserved a stern telling-off. My point is, sometimes no matter how you discipline them, you know that someone is going to think that you are doing it wrong.

In the example given by LisaV, if I had been the mother of that 3 yr old boy, I think that I would have apologised, made him apologise and tell him off in a stern voice letting him know how angry I was with what he had done. I would also warn him that he musn't do it again, otherwise he would go straight home, and I would carry out this threat if necessary. I have done this in the past with my own ds. I don't claim to be the best mother in the world, infact far from it most days, but I do try my best, and that's the same for everyone else here. Also, I think it's a bit extreme to say that because this boy hits other children at age 3, he will become a bully. It's more likely that as he matures, he will be able to control himself better, which is what usually happens as children grow up.

message withdrawn

I agree with Channelno5 up to a point. if my 3 year old son attacked a baby in the library by pulling her onto the ground by her hair and going to kick her, I would NOT threaten to take him home if he did it again. Following apology to the other child and parent and severe telling off , you would not see us for dust as I would remove him from the library immediately. There would be no second chance with behaviour as appalling as this.
LisaV I would also have felt like pulling the brat's mother off her seat by her hair...but would have restrained!

Jasper - In theory, I wouldn't actually let him do it again before we left, but if it looked as though it may happen again, we'd be off like a shot! You have to give them the opportunity to practise correct behaviour, otherwise they never learn it. But in practice, I would probably leave straight away, as I would be feeling so gutted and humiliated!

My children have been on the receiving (and giving, I'm embarrassed to say!) end of attacks like these, and I think myself, and most other mothers, accept that children do sometimes do stupid, nasty things like this, but at the end of the day, they are only children and still have alot of learning to do. I think most mothers are satisfied if the attacking child is sternly told-off and sincere apologies are made, and deep-down they are probably extremely relieved that it is not them in the other mother's position!

Can't say I've noticed any difference really.

My 2 year old boy is currently sporting a bright set of toothmarks on his cheek, given to him by his daytime playmate, a 2 year old girl.

And do you know, a tiny bit of me, if I'm honest with myself, is not exactly displeased? My son is not in pain from the bite, I hasten to add, otherwise I would not be writing this.

My son and this little girl share the same childminder. My son had a (sometime) biting problem in the summer. We used time out to discipline him, and until this episode he hadn't bitten for months. Last week he was taking medication and was generally not on top form -though certainly well enough to play.

Unfortunately when he and his friend had a falling out over a toy, he bit her, and she bit back - much harder. The childminder disciplined both toddlers thoroughly, with time out and a firm talking to for my son, as previously agreed with me (don't know what she did with the girl, but something similar I believe).

Within an hour both toddlers were hugging each other, and happily played together for the whole afternoon. When I went to collect my son, the mother of the girl apologised to me and visa versa.

Obviously I wish the incident hadn't happened, but since it had, I'm a tiny bit glad the girl bit my son back, teaching him cause and effect. It might make him think twice about biting her again.

IMO toddler incidents like this do unfortunately happen. One loses control - in a way that's unacceptable - and the other stands up for themselves - again in a way that's unacceptable. The behavior is bad, not the toddler - and with the right discipline, IMO, most will grow out of it.

Personally I feel very uncomfortable labelling 1, 2 or even 3 year olds as 'vicious, aggressive etc etc'. They are still so unformed as individuals - some are barely talking in sentences. I mean, would you say, with any commitment that a particular toddler is 'intellectual, secretive or sporty'?

Obviously if they exhibit vicious, aggressive behaviour this should be firmly disciplined, with an apology to the wronged parties. Perhaps I've just led a sheltered life - and if I encountered the sort of child that RobinW and LisaV described, I would have no hesitation in saying 'that child is a nasty piece of work'.

And a last question. Please, please, please note that I am being curious here, not confrontational!!! To all those who have said the parents do not discipline the child correctly at home: How do you know this? Are you basing this belief solely on the way the child behaves in public and is disciplined in public, or do you have other reason to believe this?