4 year old's violent behaviour, health visitor and other issues.

[tanfastic]

Good morning :)
I have a 4.2 year old gorgeous little boy (most of the time) but we've had challenging issues with him since day 1 really. He's always had a temper and been prone to violent rages but we've usually managed to sort these out through ignoring or the usual praise for good behaviour, ignore the bad, pick your battles etc. etc.

However of late his behaviour has been appalling at times resulting in a spiralling out of control rage in him where all the usual ignore techniques etc does not work. Ignoring him just means he will pick up something and throw it, follow you round the room and hit you or try some other technique to get your attention. He even broke the telly a couple of months ago by throwing a remote control at it. The biggest issue is bedtime. Lately he just won't go but this all started last November when we took his dummy away, prior to that he was a model child at bedtime and we had no problems. Last night it was 10.30 pm by the time we managed to get him to sleep. I stood in his doorway and put him back to bed about 50 times or more without speaking to him before he finally gave up through exhaustion. These are the bad bits.

The good bits are that the rest of the time he's charming. I can take him anywhere and he behaves as good as gold, nursery have no problems with him, say he's charming and charismatic, well behaved, plays nicely with other children.

We have contacted the health visitor (first time i've ever had to do this in four years but I was desperate!) and she came to see us yesterday. She says that his behaviour as described is at the worse end of normal and as we'd tried everything that she was going to suggest she is going to refer us. She says the referral will be to someone who specialises in challenging behaviour in children. They are nursery nurses apparently who have loads of experience in this. They will arrange to come and take a look at him. She said she will try and expedite the referral because it can take quite a long time but wants to try and get him seen before he starts school in September.

I just wondered if anyone has any experience of this and what happens next? I am open to trying anything at the minute to try and nip this defiant behaviour in the bud so i'm happy to see anybody they suggest as me and my husband are absolutely exhausted with it.
Thanks :)

I have nothing to really suggest - sorry. But I did wonder if reintroducing the dummy might help (if you haven't already that is). My DS kept his until he was gone 5 and then he let go himself. It's never bothered me that he used it to get to sleep - and it wasn't until he started school in Yr 1 that he started to not bother with it. If it helps a child settle and gives comfort then what can be wrong with that? Good luck with sorting everything else out - it sounds as if you are all trying really hard. Take care.

Oh dear, hopefully the 'professionals' can help you teach your son some anger management techniques. Its probably a long shot but do you think it could be linked to something in his diet? Am wondering if sugar or additives could be triggers? Does he get loads of exercise? Do you use a 'time out' or 'calm down' technique.

When my dd loses it, she has been known to have massive tantrums, I would pick her up and stick her in the hallway to let her scream it out, eventually once she calmed down would make her come in and say sorry and try and talk about what had happened. What are you doing when he is having a meltdown? Because if he sees you panicking or getting stressed he will feel even more out of control.

HTH and good luck

Thanks guys. We've been trying to not get to the stage of a massive meltdown by looking at triggers but sometimes it's so difficult and we feel like we are walking on eggshells trying not to upset him which is ridiculous. I've also been reading The Explosive Child but have got halfway through and it's starting to get a bit mind boggling so not managed to get to grips with it yet.
With regards to what we do when the red mist appears. Normally we will ignore him completely, carry on busying ourselves after telling him that once he's calmed down we will talk to him. With our son it's not as simple as just putting him in his room till he's calmed down because he won't stay there and even if I hold the door shut it just makes him madder and madder and he will start throwing toys at the door. He's a big boy for his age too so restraining him is impossible and just makes him madder. I really think the key is to not get to the rage stage in the first place but it doesn't always work out. He also seems to enjoy being punished and revels in an argument. In the past I've tried taking toys away as a punishment but he just hands them to me and says "there you are then take this too". punishments and rewards have no affect really.

I'm not sure giving the dummy back is the answer but it's something I have. Considered at desperate times!

Sometimes I do think we expect too much from him and I've adjusted my behaviour somewhat recently to allow for this and it does seem to be having a positive affect some days. He also responds well to praise so I've upped the ante on that too.

I just wondered what happens with this referral. Will it be a parenting class ?

Hi. A specialist nursery nurse helps my family with behavioural problems. Dd1 has autism and trying to manage her behaviour can be difficult. Our nursery nurse is lovely and very experienced. We meet regularly at home, she goes into dd's nursery to advise staff and we now go to a group once a week with other families with similar problems. Very helpful and a great source of support.

I would also consider reintroducing the dummy at bedtime as tiredness may be making things much worse.

HTH

Thanks Seaweed that's really helpful, she sounds wonderful. I def think we've done the right thing seeking help.

Tonight he came home from
Nursery in a foul mood, bolshy, demanding and generally throwing his weight around. He was absolutely shattered though from
Last night. I decided to get him in bed early but he kicked off big time again going mental in his room pulling books off bookshelves, throwing his duvet off etc. I stood my ground and just kept returning him to his bed. Only took about 15 returns tonight before he gave in and went to sleep (fully clothed ).

Think this could be the way to go with him. Still not sure about reintroducing dummy at 4 years old.

Sorry but what does HTH mean?

Hope That Helps.

I wouldn't give him his dummy back. I think that you're handling this very well and he may well calm down once he realises the tantrums aren't achieving anything.

If ignoring him makes him more angry/upset, have you tried engaging with him instead? Not giving in to his demands, but talking it through, acknowledging his feelings etc?

What about teaching him how to calm down? One of my boys gets very angry and lashes out and I've been teaching him to take deep breaths and go and sit out the way to think about what he's doing. It's directed at his little brother so it's easier to help him work through it. I started a star/sticker chart with him today as that works really well with him and he's been so happy all day. I've told him loads what a lovely day we've had and how happy we've all been.

Is there somewhere your Ds can be where he can't throw things while he works through his tantrum? If he's going to throw things around his room then could you take them out? Somebody may suggest physical restraint to prevent him hurting himself and damaging things, I think I've also seen it on supernanny.

Op I would give him his dummy back if you think it may be upsetting him for bed times, whats the big deal? I've never seen a 14yo with one. It's just comfort isn't it?

The thought of physically restraining a 4 yo makes me cold, does super nanny do that?

Hope it all settles for you and your ds op.

Thanks. I've not tried techniques to calm him down because once he gets himself worked up there is no reasoning with him. It might be easier to try and talk to him about that when he's in a good mood maybe.

His bedroom is quite small so not much in it. Tonight he pulled the few books off the bookshelf, his sticker chart off the wall and his dressing gown off the hook on the wall. I just removed them immediately without saying a thing.

I can't physically restrain him he's too big and strong and I'm not keen on that idea really. When he's throwing a tantrum in his bedroom he can't really hurt himself.

Thanks for all your lovely advice ladies

Google hand in hand parenting and have a look at their website. There are articles there about all sorts of issues especially tantrums I think that if you read their stuff you may begin to understand that you don't need the help of an ' expert' just a different perspective on his tantrumming behavior. It sounds like ignoring bad behavior is not working so the hand in hand website shows how actually giving love and attention to an angry raging child is actually the best thing you can do to change his behavior! It's pretty liberating to discover that.

OP I can see how worried you are but reading your post it sounds like you have a wonderful 4 year old who just loses it when he's very tired and hasn't found a good way of getting to sleep since his dummy went. It sounds more like a sleep issue than a behavioural one, and that he's just one of the (many) 4 year olds who hasn't yet learned how to deal with the angry feelings that they all have.

Perhaps because he's big for his age it seems worse? A very good friend of mine has a very big 4 year old and when he gets cross it somehow seems more extreme than when it's my teeny 4 year old just because of the strength involved, even though the behaviour is exactly the same.

I am coming (hopefully) to the end of a period like this with my 4 year old boy - he was screaming, hitting, throwing and breaking things, kicking etc etc etc. I have realised 2 things: firstly that there is always an underlying cause and that he's not really that angry just because peppa finished/he couldn't do his trousers up/a dinosaur fell over whatever whatever. In our house the most likely culprits are tiredness/hunger/thirst. If I manage to keep on top of those things then the tantrums are vastly reduced.

Secondly a very very consistent and constant reward system for good behaviour. We are using a jar with pasta pieces. Every time he does something good, and I mean EVERY time, he gets a bit of pasta in his jar, and when it's full he can choose a present. Good behaviour includes being kind, sharing, waiting nicely, speaking nicely, washing his hands after a wee, eating well, blah blah blah blah. the important thing is that it happens very regularly so that good behaviour is constantly reinforced. I don't know whether that's recommended by experts but it's working really well for us. I can't say he's always perfect, because he's a child, and in fact hit me in the face when his new reception teachers were here to visit, but I managed to take him into a different room, talk to him and he came back and said sorry and then behaved ok, which was real progress.

I am also being super careful to try never to shout/slam doors etc. I respond to shouting by getting quieter and calmer, just as I would do with an angry adult. Or at least I try to.

I'm sure you've tried all this but I just wanted to say that he sounds normal. I wouldn't have said he needs professional help based on what you've said.

I wasn't suggesting physical restraint but wondering if it may be suggested to you further down the line if his behaviour is so extreme. I'm sure I have seen it suggested on supernanny for a particularly angry/physical young child when they were causing damage in the house with their tantrums...but was thinking aloud with that.

You need to teach him that he has certain feelings and emotions which are not wrong but the way he deals with them are wrong. It's o.k to feel upset and angry but it is not o.k to lash out the way he is doing - this is how I'm dealing with my 3yr old, by acknowledging his feelings and helping him learn how to respond differently. Mine has to leave the room to calm down, anywhere where he has no toys/objects to fiddle with and distract him. He lashes out at his brothers so is removed from them, even if they are in his room and he has to go out. He's also got a star chart so he can earn 5 or 6 stars/stickers a day for not lashing out. With older children you can build this up to a longer term bigger reward like a toy or special activity.

It sounds like you're not really acknowledging his feelings and discussing his behaviour with him? How are you teaching him to deal with it? Ignoring the bad is good up to a point but with behaviour this extreme it's kind of condoning it by allowing it to continue - I don't mean you're letting him behave this way but from his point of view that may be how he sees it.

I know this is an old thread OP, but just wondering how things panned out? I have almost the exact same situation.. thanks.