How tired should my 4.3yo be?

[millingtonsmummy]

DD 4.3yo is in my eyes a happy, well balanced little girl with one problem, she's often absolutely exhausted and her behaviour reflects that. She's always enjoyed her sleep which she's inheritted from me but I'm beginning to worry.

She goes to bed at 6.30/7pm every evening and falls asleep within minutes. She sleeps solidly until around 6.30am. If she does nap in the day, say for 15 minutes I can pretty much guarantee she goes to sleep 15 minutes later in the evening so no real net gain.

She goes to preschool for 2 full days (8.30-3.30) and 1 morning (8.30-12) in term time. We do other activities together such as swimming and gymnastics each week. Whilst I think she's a busy, sociable little girl she also gets time each day to relax, watch some telly or similar.

She eats reasonably well. I don't however give regular snacks as she often doesn't eat at meal times if she's snacked between meals.

It's half term at the moment and I definitely feel her tiredness increases at the end of each half term. On Friday she threw a tantrum at 3.30pm because I wouldn't run a bath and put her in her PJs. The last 2 days have been dreadful and she nearly had to be sent to bed at 5pm today rather than join the family for a shared meal. She's often begging to be put to bed.

DH is very concerned and is planning to take her to see our GP. We've disagreed as to whether this is necessary as I feel the Dr will feel we're time wasting. But she starts full time school in September and just don't feel she'll cope.

Can anyone share similar experiences? What can I do to improve things?

I have no expertise in exactly this problem but I would say 4 yo can be quite "difficult" whether tired or not -
I don't think the GP would mind you checking up on her
However personally if she asked to go to bed I would send her - perhaps she just need a few long nights?

My DD is 4.3 also. some night she's exhausted and asks to go to bed, some night she procrastinates like hell and would still be running around at 9pm if we let her.

She gets up anywhere between 6.30 and 8.00, depending on when the baby wakes her up with his wailing! She goes to bed at 7, has a story and then reads on her own for a while until she drops off, usually around 7.30. she never needs a daytime naps unless she's poorly.

She goes to preschool every morning and we also do swimming/park/shopping nearly every day after school.

My DD eats like a horse though. Three big meals plus healthy snacks in between.

My nearly 6 year old DD is just like this. She'll go to bed for 7pm and sleep until 7/7.30am. Would quite happily nap when she gets home from school if I'd let her and from 6/6.30pm can be a right ratty little madam!
Exactly the same at end of term and requires a couple of down days to recharge.
Her brother on the other hand is nearly 4, will stay up until 9pm then still get up at 6am with his moods seemingly unaffected.

It's always worth putting your mind at rest by going to talk to your GP but I suppose they're like adults in that the amount of sleep required varies.

Is she getting enough protein and iron in her diet? Many young kids who are a little fussy/not such good eaters will struggle to get enough iron and tiredness despite getting enough sleep can be a sign of low iron levels.

IMO, she's sleeping 12hrs a night - that's quite a lot compared with my DS's at that age (9 or 10hrs if we were lucky, no naps), and is demanding to be put to bed, I would be slightly concerned if my DS's asked to go bed.

GP will be able to check iron level and perhaps do some other screening tests to rule out other things that may make her more tired than you'd expect. What is her fluid intake like? If she's very thirsty too, this may indicate other problems so be sure to mention that to the GP.

Thanks for your comments & advice. I'm pretty conscious of her protein intake as she was late to teeth and has always struggled to eat meat. She does eat meat well now and has always eaten fish. I give her broccoli often too. I have to nag her to drink anything!

I'd happily sleep for 10hrs a night and boy do i get moody when tired ;) so I can understand where she gets it from. It's all alien to DH who can survive on 6hrs sleep a night. That's where we differ on the whole taking her to the GP thing. I guess I don't want to put her through an unnecessary blood test.

DS who's just turned 2 is a bundle of energy in comparison. Amazing how 2 siblings can be so different.

Ah, but you won't know the trip to the GP and any blood tests are unnecessary until after you get the results !

Best to err on the side of caution - in any case, the GP may not think blood tests are needed. An easy (not foolproof) quick check for low iron levels you can do your self - put your finger on her bottom eye lid and press it to roll the bottom lid outwards. Is the inner surface of the eyelid bright pink or pale? Pale suggest low iron levels. Note, this is a useful check but is just for giving you a heads up that there may be a problem (compare with your eye and DH eye, remember that women of childbearing age are often low in iron too!).

If she's not drinking enough.... could account for grumpiness/temper especially in the afternoons (could make her headachey and mentally a bit sluggish).... ice lollies or ice poles on warm days to increase fluid intake may help?

Of course, as you say, maybe she just needs a bit more sleep than average - we are all different.

I'm not really picking up from your post whether this tiredness is a new thing for her, or whether she has always needed a lot of sleep? I'd definitely be getting any change checked out. That said, my DS1 has always needed tonnes of sleep. He's almost 4, and sleeps from 6.30/7 until around 7.30am, but this can easily be 8.30/9am at the weekends (he is starting to really grasp the concept of a lie in). He does 2.5 hours of pre-school each day and generally keeps quite busy- he has plenty of energy through the day, but will crash at tea time. His usual night is about 12.5 - 13 hours long; any less than 12 hours' sleep and he is a nightmare. He occasionally naps in the car, and this doesn't really seem to affect his night. He clearly just needs lots and lots of sleep - some do (my DS2 sounds a bit like your DS - much higher energy and doesn't sleep anywhere like as much as DS1, more's the pity).

Thanks SCOTHandWRY just checked her lower eyelid and as pink as DH & DS. She's always needed plenty of sleep so this isn't anything new. We've had a better day today at a jubilee garden party and she's had lots of energy to run around. She's tired now, asking for a quick bath so she can get to bed early etc. Hopefully this is just the end of half term exhaustion and a quiet few days will see her right ... .!?!

This is just a thought, but my DS2 was always tired, practically fell asleep at dinner, still napped in pm when in school nursery.

At 5.6 he was found to be very very long sighted. Got glasses, never looked back. Doesn't sleep nearly as much as I'd like now!

There were no obvious signs of it - he read early for example, but the accommodation that young children with visual problems manage left him exhausted. If it continues a trip to the opticians might be worth considering?

Having a nap when she can, even if it comes off the night's sleep, may help - it will reduce overtiredness even if the total amount of sleep is no different. Lots of children do need naps even till age 4 or 5.

I'd definitely put her to bed earlier if she's asking for it - when it's possible.

Hi OP

My DD is 4.8. She has now dropped her nap, but when she was your DD's age she was sleeping for at least 11 hours at night and having a 2 hour nap too. She still needs a lot more sleep than her brothers. Like your DD, she does 2 full days at pre-school and is very tired on those days, with a corresponding effect on her behaviour. I'm worried about her starting full time school in Sept (even though she'll be one of the oldest in the class!), but I'm not worried about her health. I think she just needs more sleep than most children.

I'm so interested to read your experiences. Thank you especially alana39 I hadn't even considered her sight. Last time I was at the optician I was reminded my kids should have their 1st eye test before they start school. I'm going to make her an appt in the morning! Thanks all.

Well she has good vision, her first eye test went really well which is a great positive. But no easing on the tiredness, she put her PJs on about 5.45 today and was crying and fussing. She eventually went to bed at 6.30. She appears to sleep for about 11.5hrs so I'm always pretty wary of letting her go to bed too early as she'll wake v early the next day. I've managed to get her to have an afternoon nap a couple of times this week which has brought a short term benefit. Next stop the GP I think, I've left this with DH.

All my kids have been like this. They all eat ever so well yet can't keep going like their picky friends. Mine aged 1/2/3/4/5/6 went to bed at 6.30pm and slept for 12 or at times 13 hours. My eldest struggled horribly through reception year and slowly got more stamina over the years. He didn't blossom till juniors and is now extremely popular and a top table chappie. At infant level though the exhaustion effected his work and ability to socialise. Aged 9 he goes to bed at 7.30 these days.

My four year old is such a lovely child but exhaustion really effects his behavior now. Our only solution is earlier bed times and a bit more down time. At the moment he is asking for bed at 6 and he obviously needs to go then. We use a GRO clock, so he never wakes us up before 7 these days even with an early night. We use a little bribery at times. A small treat if they follow the clock rules.

By all means get the kid checked out but some children are just this way. Just as other children are bouncing off the ceiling at 10pm!! I think it's mostly genetic (your genes) and partly how you have sleep trained them.

Good to hear your experiences skybluepearl. Poor darling hasn't had the easiest day ... school sports day followed by summer fete! I have a very typical video clip of her yawning on the start line of the little ones running race. We use a groclock and she plays by the rules brilliantly and always stays in bed until the sun comes up. She does often wake before hand and takes herself off for a wee but always climbs back into bed. It's hard to know who I can help her, I wish I could as she's so sad and miserable when tired.

Sounds fairly normal to me. Especially doing the full days at pre-school- they'll really tire her out. DS was like this, behaviour bloomin' awful when tired. Would fall asleep in the car at the weekend if we went out at 2/3pm. He stopped being so tired (and obnoxious) as he got nearer 5. DD is similar, behaviour also nose dives when tired (she is 3.7). She naps once a week, on Saturdays for 2 hours and this really helps. You can tell when she is really tired as at about 3.30 she says "Is it nearly bath time?".

Thanks for sharing your experiences Tgger. I'm trying to help her catch up on some sleep at the moment. Hopefully she'll reach a point where most of her waking hours can be fun rather than the moping around sucking her thumb. She was asleep at 6.10pm last night and because she uses her groclock so well I don't know what time she woke, I think after 6am some time. She's chosen to go for a nap after her lunch (v unusual but I'm delighted!) and has been sleeping so far for 1.5hrs. Need to wake her in about 20 mins as she has a birthday party to get to. Hope the long nap isn't going to make her grumpy, wishful thinking!!

Yes, some children do seem to need more sleep than others. DS napped very regularly until 4 and then I think would nap sometimes at the weekend. He napped every day until 3 and 2 months- by which age some of his peers had dropped their nap for almost a year. When his sister was still napping every day it would be him, age 4 that would be asleep on car journeys rather than her (age 2).
As I said, as he got nearer 5 he got more stamina generally, although he still needed to be in bed at 6.15pm or 6.45pm latest during the first term of Reception- even though older one and 5 in October. The full time every day with new school routines is very tiring for them. He's now 5 and 7 months and sleeps a good 12 hours still really. If he has less than 11.5/12 hours for many days in a row it's not long before he's tired and less than his joyful, fairly grown up (on a good day) self. We often get him to sleep until 8am on Sundays as during the week it's 7am get up- normally he wakes about then anyway- to be ready for school.