OK I give in. Desperately need help with getting a 4.4yo to bed.

[GwendolineMaryLacey]

It is getting to the point where I want to just walk out and leave her, every single night.

We co-sleep but she has her own room. She just doesn't want to sleep in it. Every night, same routine. Upstairs for 7pm, pyjamas, brush teeth, story (she suits baths in the morning better).

It starts with her just not taking any notice of what we're saying, playing, winding up her baby sister (4 months). It takes us till 8pm to actually get her into bed. Then she jumps around, screams, plays with toys and throws strops when we take them off her. None of this sounds too bad written down but it's relentless. It's nearly 9pm now and she's still up there giving out.

One thing we are guilty of is sending her to sleep in her own room when she pisses about, which I know is making her room seem like a punishment. Last night this went on till 10.30. She's knackered all the time and starts school in September. I'm dreading it.

I've confiscated toys, banned cbeebies, anything she cares about but she's not bothered. What am I doing wrong? I'm sure there's loads to criticise there but I need an outider's view please.

I'm a bit confused? Is she in her own room or yours normally?

Sorry, she's in our room. She gets sent to hers, then she lies there crying until she's brought back in with us. She point blank refuses to sleep in her own bed, just gets herself more worked up until we give in.

Thanks. I'm easily confused! OK. Are you committed to co-sleeping or do you want her to move into her own room, ideally?

OK I think first you need to decide where she's going to sleep (either in your room or hers, whichever you prefer, but pick one and stick with it). If the baby is in your room too then if it were me I would move her to her own room so she can't disturb anyone else.

Then I would put her to bed, switch the light off, shut the door and ignore everything else. If she's really creating then you could go in every 10 mins or so to repeat that it's time to go to sleep. Keep it very boring and dark and don't get drawn into trying to get her 'into' bed, she is old enough to find her own way there!

Oh goodness. As for where I'd prefer her to sleep, for her sake I think she should be in her own room but otherwise I'm happy for her to stay in with me. DD2 is very good but does wake sometimes. I'm not overly keen to put her in her own room just yet but it must be disturbing DD1.

On the other hand, if she was in her own room, she could be left to get on with it and potter or get into bed when she's tired.

Part of the problem is that one of us has always gone up to bed with her and stayed until she's asleep. I know, I know, shoot me now. Added into the mix is the fact that DD2 now comes too. If we leave her on her own she keeps calling down that she's lonely. She's just this minute come down full of grins to apologise and charm her way back into our good books...

Reading this back I can see two possibilities. Either taking DD2 up with us isn't helping and she either needs to be put up much earlier so she's asleep before the other one goes up or kept downstairs until DD1 is asleep. Or, we accept that her natural time for going to sleep is more 9 o'clock than 7 o'clock.

Sorry, it's very mixed up. I'm juggling the baby and trying to think!

I would try putting the baby to bed for 7 and then giving your elder daughter your full attention during the lead up to her bedtime at about 7.30ish or 8, I think. I don't think she is not tired till 9. She's just clever and knows how to get your attention and bedtime is a good time to get it! It sounds like it would be easier all round if she moved into her own bed in her own room. How do you feel about Meg's suggestion? I think it would work but she would definitely create/protest no end in the process so you would have to feel strong enough to deal with that.

I'm not an expert as I have the same problem. But I have found that this cd gets mine off to sleep in 5-10 minutes.

www.amazon.co.uk/Enchanted-Meditations-Kids-Christiane-Kerr/dp/1901923894/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337896527&sr=8-1

I think from the reviews it doesn't work for all children, but we've found it a godsend.

Hasn't solved the problem of her not settling on her own, but it has given us our evening back. She has a short story before, one of us lies with her and puts this cd on, and she drops off in around 10 minutes.

Sorry link didn't work but it's called "Enchanted Meditations for Kids" by Christiane Kerr and it's on Amazon.

What time does she get up & does she nap during day at all?

Our routine is as follows: storytime etc after 7pm, usually tends to carry on a bit longer than ideal. DH stays with DS1 in his room until he sleeps (nothing at all wrong with that, or I need to be shot along with you); I stay with DS2 in our room where he sleeps. If DS2 sleeps first, i sometimes shoo my husband off and stay with DS1 as I tend to have a more relaxing influence on him . We both escape by at least 9pm unless we dropp off with them.
DS1 stays asleep until about 1-2am and comes to our bed then. I struggled before to keep in his own bed through the night but have decided it is fairly pointless and he really does not bother DS2. THey have a strange immunity to each others complaints at night time (usually...)
Good luck!
M

My DD uses Bedtime Meditations by Christiane Kerr and it's worked wonders. She's older (10) but was having big problems falling asleep but now we're down to minutes instead of 2-3 hours!

What time do you put DD2 to bed? It might be that your DD feels she's missing out by going to bed at 7am. Maybe you shoud try putting you DD2 to bed first and then DD1 gets all the attention and gets to feel grown up by staying up a little later. Are you having to wake her in the mornings or do you think she'd cope with a 7.30pm bedtime?

IMO your DD has no clear boundaries re bedtime/sleep and she is milking it for all she is worth (I have DD of the same age who is very capable of this). Your DD is using every delay tactic she can think of.

I'd use a supernanny-ish bedtime routine on her - I don't think it's too late.

Before going off to bed ensure she isn't hungry, thirsty, has brushed teeth etc (my DD will use each of these as a delay tactic with her father if she can).

We do 2 stories, cuddle, then goodnight, lights out.

All the jumping, strops etc etc is all about getting attention, being in 'control' and delaying bedtime. I wouldn't confiscate anything or threaten (at this time), but explain very carefully that you expect her to stay in bed. If anything gets thrown etc, do not react to her (what she wants), but take item and let her see you put it into a bin bag and take it from the room(you can give it back in a month or so once bedtime is sorted). She can choose to throw stuff, but then that stuff will be taken away.

If she gets up, apply supernanny:

1. It's bedtime, love you, night night,
2. Bedtime (put back into bed without saying another thing),
3. no eye contact, just put back into bed.

repeat 3 as necessary.

Everyone I know whose kids are really good at going to bed knows bedtime means bedtime and have parents who set clear boundaries. Everyone I know whose kids are a nightmare at bedtime, lack clear boundaries and have parents who for whatever reason don't set these boundaries. I am of the former class, DP of the latter - so we are potentially a mess, saved only by the fact that I do the majority of bedtimes!!!

DP is slowly coming around to my way of thinking after I agreed that we should try HIS way (if he wasn't going to do it my way the way that works) and DD was up until 10pm every night very unhappy, throwing strops etc for about a month. Then I suggested perhaps my way worked a little better??? :)

BTW we also co-sleep and I BF DD to sleep as a baby, and DP has been holding her to sleep until she was about 3.5 (a year ago), and still does occassionally. That is what my DD ideally wants - to be hugged until she is asleep.

But she is perfectly capable of going to sleep normally, and she gets loads of other affection. The main thing is is DD benefits most from getting to bed on time and getting off to sleep herself. She needs the sleep

Thanks all. There are some really useful thoughts which I'm going to digest. She absolutely has no boundaries where bedtime is concerned, you're right. And she's queen of procrastination.

She is up between 7 and 8 depending on what we are doing and she hasn't napped for a couple of years. Incidentally, she didn't go to preschool today as she was far too tired .

I'll have a look at that cd and think about what you've all said. Supernanny tactics may well be needed....

Be firm, be consistent, be a team - you'll have the entire situation turned around in under a week!

Aswell as all the other advice, get her up at 7am, lots of fresh air & exercise during the day, then you know she is definitely tired and can be firm with her.

Well she's had lots of fresh air and exercise today! Let's see how we go tonight...

I had huge success promising DS a sweet in the morning if he went to bed and stayed in bed. We did it for a week and then, amazingly, he just forgot about the sweet and we didn't have to give it anymore - but he still stayed in bed. I only did it out of desperation but I wish I'd done it sooner.

Not quite the same but we had huge sleep troubles with our DD. Less going to bed trouble, and more up in the night needing mummy in beside her. We eventually had to accept, at age 4, that she simply needed less sleep than most and her bedtime did need to be later. We still put her in bed at the same time as her older brother, but she's allowed to play quietly or read until she's ready to go to sleep. My DS does that too, but for less time.

We tried all manner of 'systems' and saw sleep clinics and paediatricians with no results. Then suddenly at about age 4 HUGE bribery started to work too. I'd uby a toy she wanted (a proper, big one) and tape it to the fridge so she could see but not reach. Each night that she made a decent effort of being a good sleeper (I didn't expect perfection straight off) she got a star sticker on the box. Once she had enough, she got the toy. Though if she didn't 'win' it in a reasonable time frame she was threatened with it going to her friends.

I know all kids are different and different things work, but don't feel bad about having to 'break rules' to get her to sleep. One thing that might work for you is the 'slow retreat' method - you sit with her until she's sleeping for a few nights, next few you stay in the room, next few you sit outside the door etc. Coupled with some good rewards and a lot of praise and you might get somewhere. I think it's also worth ignoring all the bedtime crap of bouncing on beds/playing/asking for drinks etc. Best not to give it too much attention IME.