really at the end of our tether with dd's behaviour

[Debris]

She is nearly 7 yrs old. She has always been difficult at bedtime. Now she is unbearably difficult, and not an awful lot better the rest of the time. Its like she just cannot bear to do anything she is told. ANYTHING ! This morning the first battle was because I said she was to have a bath or shower and which would she prefer. Cue lots of shouting and screaming ' I dont want a bath or shower . I dont need one , Im not washing my hair it doesnt need washing '. Kicking out , screaming , ranting , throwing things around the room, for ages. In the end my DH said that she would have to stay in her room and could only come out to have a bath or shower. by now she has thrown everything off her bed , is shouting , ranting etc. Eventually she gave in and had a shower and was like a different child. Its like its never happened ! Oh but bedtime. .. we have tried everything , but it always ends up with her refusing to get undressed , refusing to brush her teeth , refusing to go to the toilet. Shouting , rolling around on the bed or floor making the most dreadful racket. If we try to intervine she wont listen and just gets worse. Tonight my DH went to try and get her to bed , but he just loses his temper and shouts , which makes her worse , upsets me and our evening is spent in stunned silence. I cant tell you how awful it is , she makes so much fuss , and shouts ' no no no ' etc so loudly I swear one day one of the neighbours will call the police . It just sounds so dreadful. At school she is as good as gold. I went to speak to her teacher this week about her behaviour at home , to see if there was anything going on at school , and she seriously looked at me like I was talking about the wrong child. She is an angel at school. I have tried so many things to try and make a difference , reward charts , bribes , threatening to remove a treat ot fave toy ( and done it) , a chart of things she had to tick off once she had completed ( brush teeth , put pyjamas on etc ) . They work for a little while , but not long. Ive tried lots of praise for good behaviour and ignoring bad , bedtime massage , relaxation cds , changed her diet (ongoing) , supplements like vegepa omega 3 and 6 , decent vitamin supplements. I just dont know what to do next. Its making my DH and I snappy with each other and I just need some help and advice. Sorry its so long , I needed to get it out I think.

*drove her mad.
Sorry, I'm on my phone!

Can I resurrect this thread? Dd has been awful beyond description these last2days. Awful .

I don't know what to do. I don't enjoy being with her, mostly I want not to be with her. She is exhausting. Sanctions work, but then some other naughty behaviour appears and wham it is out of control before you have even had time to register that it has happened. so then you have to start all over again. It is so wearing, like holding back a landslide all the time. I justwant to beable to relax and enjoy her, and she won't let me.

This morning: Huge tantrum because she couldn't get her arm in the sleeve of her dress. This is beacuse, it is the sort of dress it is easier to step into, but she is too lazy to stand up. Moaned that her book bag was too heavy, and just chucked everything on the floor.Couldn't do sactions as late as usual due to her behaviour. It is like been trapped by a giant spider

I will look at that book, but tbh we have tried everything. Reward charts, 123 Magic, Parenting the Defiant Child, reading The Highly Sensitive Child. They haveall worked a bit, but then you are busy, or distracted, or late, and don't have time to apply the stuff. I also think these books are only helpful in the middle range. When a child is at the upper end, you cannot do all the things suggested in these books, as that is all you end up doing, and nothing else. And that is what it feels like to me. My whole life with dd is about her behaviour. We never have fun, it is just a constant constant batlle of wills. And I reward good behaviour too

"This morning: Huge tantrum because she couldn't get her arm in the sleeve of her dress. This is beacuse, it is the sort of dress it is easier to step into, but she is too lazy to stand up. Moaned that her book bag was too heavy, and just chucked everything on the floor.Couldn't do sactions as late as usual due to her behaviour. "

You may have already done this but just in case.....

I would have her getting dressed early enough that you can leave her to have a paddy about putting her arm in and wait for her to work out for herself that she needs to step into it. If she turns to you for help explain that she needs to take it off and start again by stepping into it but that is as far as it goes.

I would have left the bookbag where she dumped it and allowed her to choose to either pick it up and carry it nicely or leave it at home and explain to the teacher why she doesn't have it with her.

If you use this approach you don't need to impose sanctions as she's learning from the natural consequences of her behaviour.

Can you do something really out of the ordinary to break the cycle of behaviour? Then tell her how much you've enjoyed her company when something goes well.

I recommend Unconditional Parenting. It's a completely different approach from the traditional reward/punishment angle, and is backed up by science (it's referenced in the back).

www.amazon.co.uk/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Rewards-Punishments/dp/0743487486

I have done natural consequences too.

I have to put on 2 loads of cream for her eczema in the morning, with 25 minutes between eachapplication. This leaves little time for getting dressed which is why it is always a nightmare.

She didn't dump the bag, just the stuff out of it. It is still where she left it as I am expecting her to pick it up when she gets home.

I like the natural consequence approach, but last night woul have been a perfect example of how it wouldn't work.

She decided that she wouldn't wipe her bottom after going for a poo. I refused to wipe it, and explained why(She quite capable of doing it) She sat on that toilet and screamed for 25 minutes. The natural consequence of this would have been
a) ds would have wet himself, as he was desperate to go to loo
b) She would have had an itchy bottom which would have kept all of us up all night. So in the end I had to intervene. And that is what these books don't help with. The on size fits all deosn't always work. I couldn't leave her on loo for ever as it was getting late, and 2 other people needed to use bathroom. . So I put her in her room for 5 minutes (and all the time, bedtime is getting later and later). She hates to do anything for herself. and this is where the conflicts start, just getting her to do ANYTHING for herself is such a battle. ( I am ashamed at what I have had to write)

Dh have bought up 3 boys between us with no problems and we are both at our wits end with her. I am also a teacher, and know quite a bit about to handle badly behaved kids but she is just impossible. She can escalate a situation from zero to meltdown in a minute, before you even realise what she has done I think that is the hardest thing of all, that she catches you unawares and steals a march on you all the time

I have looked through the Amazon Look inside thingy of that Unconditional Parenting. It does chime more closely with how I think and feel, but I am concerned that if there is no sanction at all then behviour will carry on. Surely they have to learn right from wrong and some structure is needed?

However, I am interested in the bit on the focussing on behaviour and control to the detriment of everything else.I do think there are elements of truth in this. I am not a controlly type person at all, and do believe that children should learn from their own mistakes, and this is how I was bought up.However once during a course of CBT I was told that my depression could have stemmed from lack of boundaries as a child so I din't want to revisit the sins of the mothers so to speak.

OK, I can see exactly where you're coming from in terms of last night and natural consequences.

You say she hates to do things for herself and wiping her bottom is one where she seems to have you over a barrel. So can you use it as a lever to get her to do other things?

Maybe you could say that you will either wipe her bottom or help her in another way which she likes e.g. helping her put on her PJs. That way she is making a choice rather than engaging in a battle of wills and you are retaining some control.

She clearly has a very strong need for you to treat her like a younger child and maybe this is a good way for the two of you to compromise. She will hopefully be doing some things for herself with less of a battle and in return she can have help from you in a positive atmosphere because she has earned it rather than manipulated you into doing it.

Oh, this is so helpful, I am actually sitting here crying. I have just been trying and trying to fight the younger child thing all the time. I want her to do more for herself not less. It is so wearing dealing with it, but it is so true. It is the thing she wants more than anything else. I had never thought about compromising with it, all I had thought aboutwas fighting it.

Hmm...my eldest daughter (5.5 years) is just like this. We are about at the end of our tether with her as her behaviour is making family life unbearable.

Long story short, my wife has done a lot of research online, and I have spoken to someone who teaches kids with behavioural issues. She suggested that our daughter may well suffer from Pathological Demand Avoidance Syndrome and my wife turned up exactly the same thing in her research. It on the Autism scale.

We have decided that we cannot continue as we are and have therefore opted to get a private assessment done by a clinical expert in such things in order for us to be able to move on in some way as a family. It won't solve anything in terms of her behaviour but it should start us on the path to better understanding and dealing with it. Her school would also have to take notice of any diagnosis if there is one. At the moment I think the school thinks we are mad as I get the feeling our DD is something of a model pupil! They don't see her once she's out of the school yard though when she unloads her stored up anxiety on us in the evenings.

@ orangeandlemons - Give yourself a break. It's much easier to come up with ideas when you're not in the thick of something like this. I hope it helps.

@ DaftMule PDA can be seen quite often in lots of children on the Autism spectrum. I find that my girls show far more PDA traits when they are feeling anxious about something so perhaps some of your DD's would improve with more support in school.

This is a very supportive forum for parents of children with and without a diagnosis. The scenario of a child who is perfect at school and loses it when she gets home is very familiar. You'll be able to get advice on the best way to get an assessment and support in school.

@Timandra - Your approach (shutting the door and letting them scream) is interesting but something we cannot do. One of the problems is that we have a 1.5 yo DD2 and whilst they are in separate rooms we do not live in Buckingham Palace so no East wing to shut DD1 into while DD2 goes to sleep in West Wing :-S DD2 is teething etc as it is and DD1's tantrums delay her going to bed. Then DD1 starts with repetitive yelling for us to come upstairs..."I want some water", "I can't sleep...I've tried 4 times" etc etc until she eventually falls asleep..which is currently any time between 8.30 and 9.30pm. DD2 is getting woken up by this several times which is just really unfair and DD1 seems to have no concept of the impact her behaviour is having on her sister.

We shall see what the experts have to say tomorrow!

@DaftMule - I think you need to read my post again.

I would never advocate shutting a door and letting a child scream. I advocated letting a child work out for herself that having a tantrum isn't going to make it easier to get her dress on. I would stay close by to reassure her and in case she turned to me for help.

I wish you well with your appointment tomorrow.

Hi oranges I have not read unconditional parenting - but other similar stuff I have read (from the hand in hand parenting website ) says that children are naturally good and cooperative . When their behavior goes off track it is a sign that something is bothering them and they need a parents attention and support to help work through their feelings children do know right and wrong and don't need sanctions to tell them.. Bad behavior is really a cry for help . They are just children and cannot deal with their emotions alone . Hope this helps you find some ways that work with your daughter.