School play - 4yr old to be banned

[kizzie]

Hi everyone - my little 'angel' hasnt been doing as he's told during rehearsals for school christmas play. Apprently he keeps singing in a silly voice and the teacher has told me that if doesnt behave he wont be in the play (he 4 and a 1/2). Obviously I want him to behave at school but this just seems a bit draconian (Sp?) to me. Isnt that what reception class nativities are meant to be about - lots of lovely singing and the odd little horror doing something naughty in the background to keep the dad amused.
This must make me sound awful - I really really do take my childrens education seriously but I just feel a bit cross that they are making such a fuss about this.
(Ive been to some school assemblies over the last few weeks and Ive seen him sitting very nice and still at the front so I know that in general he's not disruptive when the rest of the school are there. Ive volunteered to go in on thursday to help with the next rehearsal to see if that makes a difference.
Anyway - just wondered if others had an opinion. (Or any teachers out there to tell me what a nightmare it is to keep them all under control- and that I should be grateful they havent expelled him yet!)
Kizziex

dear kizzie
this sounds ridiculous to me, now no disrespect to your ds but is the teacher sure he is singing in a silly voice? Maybe its his normal singing voice? I can't sing and when I try people always say stop that horrible noise. Have you asked him to sing to you "like he does for the school play" then you might see. If he is indeed singing in a silly voice you can say "oh your normal lovely singing voice is so much nicer and that's what all the mummies and daddies are coming to hear" Maybe your ds doesn't quite realise how important it is for the teacher to look good in front of the parents (I mean that last bit somewhat sarcastically!!!)

Yes, Cam could be right about the voice. My brother had a deep voice as a child and when he sang at assembly would be told to stop joining in! He's in this 30's now and a teacher and still remarks on it. If you go in for a rehersal you can judge for yourself. Maybe the teacher is taking it all too seriously and is forgetting they are only 4 and 5 yr olds.

Kizzie, I am sure your 'little horror' is absolutely delightful and very funny, but this does sound like normal school discipline to me, and that it might help to support it, otherwise the teachers will have a whole cast of 'little horrors doing something naughty in the background' and indeed all over the stage, and it will be a shambles!
Is he over-excited and showing off a bit? If he IS singing in a silly voice, I am sure his classmates are absolutely loving it and egging him on by laughing...would it help to support him NOT to fall for being the class clown, the one who gets it in the neck while the eggers-on get off scott free? I speak fom bitter experience here - and had been expelled from the Church Hall Ballet Group by the age of three for shouting 'everybody get in my line' and inventing off-menu dances. It was all downhill from there....

I think its great that youve offered to go in on thursday to see whats going on thats really helpful.
I have been helping the nursery with the nativity rehearsals and theres one little boy who sweet as he is WILL NOT stop talking and who sings in the most vulgar voice above everyone else. LOL
I was sat next to him trying in vain to keep him from talking really loudly, but hes so polite, EXCUSE ME WHATS THAT etc etc that though hes interrupting it is indeed rather amusing.
I think its wicked if they keep him out of the play but imagine if all the kids were singing daftly etc.
My advice is to go along and have a word in his ear about singing nicely so Santa can hear him.

P.S Kizzie, I think it's brilliant that you are going into a rehearsal to help, and this will probably be a great support to your DS AND the teacher. I am not a teacher, but I have run loads of drama workshops and rehearsals in schools with young children, and I HAVE threatened expulsion from the project, especially successful with the ones who most want to be in it, and therefore most over-excited, and most likely to want to redeem themselves pronto! Would never threaten to eject those of low-self-esteem or those misbehaving in order to 'set them selves up to fail' through lack of confidence, IYSWIM.
And I would be very pleased if a parent came in and helped...

Thanks everyone - loads of good advice!!
Although I'd love to believe that its because his natural singing voice is a bit strange I know that really he is playing the clown and lapping up the attention from the other children.
So - Ive confirmed with the teacher that I will go in to the rehearsal and that Im going to practice with him at home and that DH and I (and grandad who is superhero in DS eyes) are going to talk to him about how important it is to do his very best.
I'll report back next week when it's all over!!!
Kizziex

Encore! Encore!

kizzie, I think you are doing all the right things. You do have to find ways of nicely discouraging the sillyness I think, as I know from experience. My 9 year old son mostly gets his bad marks at school not for swearing or fighting but for singing, dancing and whistling at inappropriate times.

However teachers discovered he had a nice voice last year, and heaped bonus points on him when he sung well. Now he belts out any old song he can in assembly and loves being in the choirs.

He is singing with a group on stage in the christmas play. There have been problems with his overexcitement and sillyness, but on balance I think his enthusiasm for the singing will prevail. And that's down to the encouragement and recognition he has from his teachers.

As long as your son's teacher is quick to praise - I'm sure you are as well - hopefully your son will get the message in time. And I am sure he is not the only 4 year old in his class to play up - once one of them sings, I am sure lots of the otehrs start as well.

Hi everyone - sorry this might be a long post but I am so upset. I went in to the school but ds was v excited that i was there which was slightly counter productive so I sat at the back and kept out of the way. DS was naughty - he said his line ok but he wouldnt sit still and was just generally showing off. I have to be honest and say he was the worst although there were quite a few of the other children who were messing about too. They just werent as bad. Anyway half way through the teacher asked me to take him out which I did and told him it was his last chance - he went back in and was half ok for rest of rehearsal.
At the end though the teacher said that it hadnt worked me being there and that there was no way he couold be in the play because he was going to spoil it for everyone else.
(I was quite upset by this stage). She said it was a discipline issue and that she was taking away the treat of being in the play but I said I thought it was just going to set a precedent where if he dosent behave he then gets out of something. Anyway in the end she agreed that her main concern was not disrupting the play rather than sorting out DH. I have suggested that I sit with him at the front on my knee and make it clear taht Im having to do that because he has been misbehaving whereas all the other muumies are allowed to sit in the audience but she relly doesnt want him in it. She sid I should have tried that today while I was there - but I hadnt wanted to interrupt them in the middle of the rehearsal.
Anyway shes talking to the head this afternoon and Im also going to try and have a chat with the head too.
The teacher also said that she is going to keep an eye on himn for signs of ADHD so thats another reason why im feeling so upset.
Anyway sorry this is such a long post. But its really got to me.
Do you all think Im overreacting - and should just accept that he's not in it?
Kizziex

Oh Dear, Kizzie, poor you / poor DS.
How is he recting to it? Does he KNOW he was fidgetting etc, and know that he wasn't supposed to? Is this just the way he is when very over-excited?
I think it's very important that he doesn't pick up on you not being happy with the teachers approach to this: he will love that, and it could encourage him to act up more. If he is conscious that he was being a bit noisy etc etc, then I think you can use it underline the fact that he needs to be able to do as told...(oooh, but it's so hard when they're so little and excited, isn't it?).
Of course you are v worried by the teacher voicing concerns: has this ever come up before in her mind, or yours? If he really can't help it, then rather than dash his confidence and enthusiasm, I would see if there is a brief cameo appearance he could make..or an offstage but VERY IMPORTANT role such as handing out programmes, perhaps in costume?

Kizzie

I think you should definately speak to the Head. I really think this teacher is overreacting. It is a class christmas performance - not the bl**dy RSC!!

If she suspects he may have ADHD why is she treating him like this. It is like punishing a child for only having one leg. Who would do such a thing to a small child!

When you speak to the Head I think you should make it clear that you do support the teacher in terms of DS and discipline. However, I would make it very clear that this is a special day, and there are all the other days in the year for this teacher to be making her point to DS. It seems disproportionate to make an issue of this now. I would also tell the head that you are very worried about the teachers approach to attention seeking behaviour. I would tell him that virtually every child behaviour expert would say that ignoring the showing off and making a fuss of him when he is behaving well is the best way to try and improve things. In responding so severely to his bad behaviour this teacher is reinforcing it. I would ask whether this teacher normally has such a negative approach to behavioural issues and whether she has received any training in positive reinforcement recently.

I think you should say to the head that you are interested in the teachers views of ADHD and will think about it over the christmas holidays and talk to your GP then if you feel it is warranted. I would let him know that you do not feel the punishment is going to work if the teacher is right and he does have a recognised behavioural issue.

Are you sure that this is the right teacher for your child. Is it a one class per year school or could you ask to move him into another class?

OMG- this makes me so cross when teachers drop in things like "oh he may have ADHD"(or in the case of my mum's friend "oh I think your dd's autistic". Do they actually know anything about ADHD? Bang out of order- and I would complain to the head about that. If your child did have ADHD this is not the wayto go about it.

Have a look at some sites- but I think you would have worried earlier about ADHD if your child di have it. Struggling to sit still at 4 is because of immaturity - not ADHD. Incidentally I went to a talk at a Steiner school recently and the teacher there said that he was opposed to children under the age of 8 putting on perfomances for parents as he thought many children couldn't cope with it (maybe a bit extreme- but an interesting point).

Teacher sounds far too precious about her play. My non-verbal 4 year old autistic son is taking part in his (mainstream) school play- and this has been achieved by adapting his part to suit him. If your child really did have ADHD (which I very much doubt) then excluding him could contravene the DDA (it may not but you could drop that into conversation).

BTW lots of children go silly when their mum's are at school. I accompanied ds1 on his school trip on Monday and the children with mum's in were all clingly and bit tearful- the teachers saw it as normal.

Have a meeting with the head or teacher- and raise your concerns about how this is being handled. Also you would have a chance to ask more about his general behaviour in class.

should not have been a wink there!

Hi everyone - thanks for your messages!
I decided to ring the school in the end and spoke to the head. We have decided that either me or DH will go into school on monday morning when the play is performed in front of other pupils. DS will sit on our knee alongside the other children and will take part but if at any time he misbehaves then we will take him straight out.
I have told the head that we will make it clear that we are having to do that because he has not been behaving properly (so that he doesnt see it as a treat that one of us is sitting with him).
If this doesnt work on monday then Ive agreed that he wont take part in the 'public' performances - basically because I dont want to make any more fuss about it and jeopardise any relationship with the teacher.
I think the teacher had already complained about me to the head though because she said it wasnt a case of the teacher not 'wanting' DS to be in th play but that she didn't feel it was appropriate for him !? I knew that id been very very polite with the teacher though and although a bit weepy had tried to see it all from her point of view - but the head did say that the teacher was getting slightly 'overwhelmed' with the whole thing.

Anyway - sorry this is so long- I feel pleased in a way that Ive stood up for DS and that he's got one last chance on monday and we'll then look at the possibility of ADHD after that.

(He's just spent 45 mins decorating the christmas tree with grandma like a little angel so at moments like this I dont believe he has a problem but then at other times he is a handful so who knows?)

Kizziex

Dear Kizzie ...
I am sorry that you are having such a bad time ... and I agree with everyone here that the teacher has been over the top.
Speaking from experience (I always did all the school productions during the 10 years that I was a teacher) ... it is a nightmare when you have to put on a play with a cast of 30+ kids (I did one with 150 once ) and there are one or two that spoil it for the rest if they are naughty .... and to be totally honest with you I have often been tempted to ban a child from participating due to the problems and disruption he or she have caused.
BUT ... although tempted ... I have never done it .... and I don't think that any teacher should. Your little boy is only 6 months older than mine and I would be on the warpath big time if he was being treated in this way - and I am usually really sympathetic to the teacher's lot when I read 'anti' teachers posts on mumsnet ...
It does not sound to me that this teacher has much experience in putting on plays ... if she did she would know that more often than not children play up in rehearsals for the benefit of their classmates but on the night they perform beautifully for their mums and dads - especially as they are so proud of their costumes and make up etc ....
Yes, there are littlies who do the 'waving at mummy' thing and 'picking their noses' thing when faced with and audience .... and I would be very cross if I had a cast of 8 - 10 year olds who did that but honestly with a cast of 4 year olds they are little more than babies really ... and they do get over excited ...
I know that I am going on a bit but are the head of the school and the teacher aware that they could totally ruin your son's willingness to participate in things like this .... pretty much all drama at school at this very young age has to do with enthusiasm rather than acting ability and 'focus'.
If the school can't manage to have everyone participate then they shouldn't do a play AT ALL ... and children of this age are FAR too young to do the audition thing and only take part because of talent ...
Oh ... and another thing .... I totally agree with whoever said that the 'ADHD' comment was like punishing a child with one leg ... whether your son has ADHD or not should have NOTHING to do with his participation in the play ...
I have produced several plays over the years in which children with behavioural difficulties have shone ... because it is their chance to do something OUT of the restrictions of the classroom and a chance to use up their energies in a positive way ....
Anyway ... sorry for going on but I am feeling increasingly cross with this silly teacher ... she obviously has no clue at all ...... and to ban your child from taking part (at this young age) is WRONG ...

Ghosty - thankyou so much for your reply - Im almost in tears again now beause your note really touched me!
I'm going to try and think about it calmly over the weekend without getting upset - and I might put a quewstion on the site about ADHD to get opinions from other mums who have children with it. But to be honest at the moment I just see that as a separate issue.
Anyway thanks again - I really appreciate it.
Kizziex

Hello everyone - just a little update.
Dh went to the school yesterday when the play was performed in front of pupils and sat near DS as promised so that he could be taken out straight away if he misbehaved. He was fine!!!
And today it was for all the parents and he was great - said his line / sat still/ sang all the songs. im so glad I insisted that he was given the chance to be in it. (The ironic thing is that my other little boy wasnt feeling too well and just sat on one of the assistants knees all the way through!)
Ive said I want a proper meeting in Jan about the whole attention thing - but going to try and forget about it for now.
He was soooo proud when he came off the stage and said 'see mummy - I told you i could be good!'

They both have very heavy colds now so I dont think they'll be able to make it to school tomorrow for the final performance but I dont care now because he had the chance to show that he was up to it.

Anyway - thankyou all so much for all you advice over the last few days. I'll let you know how it goes in Jan.
Kizziexxx

awwwh - bless him - and good on you for persisting
good idea about seeing in Jan about meeting with teaches
enjoy xmas the sort it in Jan!!!
well done to you and your ds

my ds2 (as i predicted) IS finding all the christmas stuff too much- his AS behaviours have caused him to be initially allowed to not be a shepherd (he hates dressing up) to be in the yr2 choir-- to again be told he wasn't 'singing' (though he says he was...and to him he probably was...) so he's got to be s shepherd....this is another in the long list of his schools non-acceptance of his needing a DX and yet again i will have to talk to the teacher- and if neccasary i just won't take him to school on the 2 concert days- i cannot dare imagine how he will suffer if made to where a shepperd's head gear...JIMJAMS...this makes me think of what you said about alot of people seeing ASD as 'behavioural' as THAT is what they see- when infact it's nothing to do with BEHAVIOUR...however that is what DS2 is being 'punished' for....wonder if i refused to take him to school till after xmas...would i then get 'my day incourt' as they say...to demonstrate his difficulties???

kissie, that brought a tear to my eye, how lovely.

I'm so pleased, kizzie! It probably would be worth having the meeting anyway just to keep channels of communication open and friendly between you and his teacher. I know it's tempting to just forget it happened, but it sounds as if the teacher is a bit overkeen to "label" your ds, and it's worth putting the effort in to head her off at the pass!

Have a great Christmas though and forget about it until the new year

Kizzie,

Very pleased to hear about the progress with your son.

Just a mischievous question - is the teacher young and childless per chance? ...she sounds a bit clueless.

Oh Kizzie, that's SO good!

I had been meaning to post and apologise, as I feel that my earlier posts were too teacher-biased: I had kind of taken it for granted that the teacher knew what she was doing and was experienced at structuring and handling school plays!....as someone else posted, it IS tricky doing this stuff with under 8' and teachers have to think REALLY carefully about how they involve ALL the kids each to their own strengths, keep them all involved throughout, not bored, and anticipating over-excitement.

SO pleased he was so proud of himself....he sounds like a delightful, very bright and lively little soul. WELL DONE, and lets hope the teacher gets a little chill-out time over Xmas and returns with a little more perspective!

Kizzie
I'm just back from my DS's (3.5) nativity and was thinking of you then. The children all behaved so well during the nativity and then they sang a few songs afterwards. As soon as they had finished the boys were off tearing around the school like usual - they had obviously tried so hard to be good!

So glad that everything worked out in the end for your DS. Still think the teachers a bit mad though

My son was banned from taking part in his nativity sing song at nursery school last year for being a little disruptive during rehearsals. He was 3 years old...needless to say with staff attitudes like that he didn't stay to go into the school...he's now very happy in his new school and is about to play the part of a cow in the nativity.