4yr bouncing off the walls (literally) until 10pm and sometimes after every night.

[Bellared]

I've started waking him up at a similar time (between 7 and 8am) every morning and so far its not having an effect on him - been doing this for a couple of weeks now.

His behaviour is up and down. He can be lovely one minute then hitting the dog and his baby brother and me the next. I'm putting this down to tiredness and normal 4yr old behaviour.

He has the same bedtime routine every night and I try and get him to go to bed about 8.30 but does often result in him holding onto furniture/door frames/bannister so I cant get him upstairs. You'd piss yourself laughing if you saw the ordeal. Prior to that he has a mad hour where he runs from the kitchen to the front room constantly then spins round in circles until he falls over. Once in bed he is up and down the stairs until about 10pm and banging about in his bedroom and always results in me and DH going to bed early so he'll stay in bed but it doesn't work.

How can I get him to go to sleep at an earlier time? Baby goes up to bed at 6.45-7pm so I try and sort DS1 out after then but am on my own most of the time as DH works stupid shifts.

I don't let him have chocolate or anything like that on a daily basis either so don't know where this sillyness is coming from. Last night it was 11pm before he decided to go to sleep.

I presume you turn off all lights & noisy things, sit in the room with him while he's in bed. That the room is dark, perhaps because you have blackout curtains. And that he gets plenty of exercise.
Some kids need less sleep than others, mine would only sleep 10 hours at that age, so wake up just before 8am would mean 9:30ish bedtime.

Is he getting plenty of fresh air and exercise during the day? Id try and ensure that as a priority.
Then id look at diet, is there a lot of processed foods in his diet?additives? Try to eat as 'naturally' as possible.
And i have to say, i dont think hitting or this level of defiance is 'normal' 4yo behaviour at all. He needs stronger and clearer boundaries.

THat sounds a bit late to me?

He isn't still napping I presume?

Two of mine have had the mad running round and spinning in circles when they've very tired, but not to the extent you say.

Tbh it doesn't sound normal to do this to this extreme, but firstly I'd try what ragged suggests. You may need to lie with him (ds settles much quicker), maybe a star chart for getting ready for bed well/staying in his room. If it's like my two you need to prempt the crazy running. Is he starting getting wound up while you're settling the baby I wonder?

It may be a habit he's got into (fun game for him?), but perhaps ask yourself what he's like during the day. Does he concentrate on something he enjoys? Does he always have to be running around? Does he sit down well to eat? Can he listen while you read a story? Does he go to preschool and have they raised any worries about his behaviour?

A perhaps clutching at straws suggestion is he doesn't have squash (particularly no-added sugar) in the evenings? Some children go hyper on the stuff they put in it (one child put it to me as "I go to war if I drink it" and it described it beautifully!)

IWhat I tend to do for mine is roughly: cut out screen time after 6:00. Find something quiet he can do (sticker book, lego, colouring) while you settle the baby. Then when baby is down, either join in with what he's doing or read a story quietly. Let him know that in 10 minute (or end of story) it's bath time. Set a timer he can see. Then pack it away and go and run a bath with him, so he can't run off. Bath him, and brush teeth then take him to his room. Now he shouldn't come out of his room as a general rule. Put sticker on his chart if he's been good so far. Read him story, and either switch the light out, or leave him to look at a book for a few minutes. You may need to sit outside on the landing at first. Sticker in the morning if he's not got out of bed (except for toilet/sick etc)

I know that makes it sound easy and it's not. Hopefully it's a habit he's in and breaking it is hard, but worth it. If it continues it may be worth talking to the Gp about it. With dd2 they gave me some stuff that made her sleep for 12 hours. Unfortunately it's now not prescribed for children. But it was lovely when she'd got into a habit of waking for the day at 2am.

Bella, my ds is the same re high activity, impulsive but is prone to full blown tearful tantrums rather than hitting etc. he is 5, and we also have a baby and husband who does silly shifts!
Ds gets really tired and I start winding him down for bed at 6pm, pj's on, tv off etc - I wonder if your 8pm bedtime is too late, if your ds is too far gone by then?!. you have had good advice so far and I second the poster who said about cutting out additives and squash. We have just done this with ds and it has made a bit of a difference to his behaviour already.

Its not just sweetners and colours you have to watch out for its the preservatives as well, which are in squash and other food such as bread. We have also cut down on bread, none with preservative at all, and pasta as his diet was v carb heavy. If you think your ds has adhd type symptoms it might be worth looking at his diet - some good websites if you google.
Good luck.

Thanks MN'rs for getting back to me. I'm going to try the earlier bedtime thing tonight.

We moved about a month ago and he's gotten worse since then but he was behaving like that beforehand. I've tried stickers and bribery and the threat of taking his toys off him but it doesn't work and when they do get taken off him and I tell him in stern voice that the way he's acting isn't right I get told I'm being too harsh by DH and that I'm always shouting at him. I don't shout though that's the thing. I'm the stricter one in the house and I've said to DH that he needs to be less soft with him as DS is getting mixed messages that it's OK to behave like this. But I end up with him having a go at me for being too hard! We're starting a new nursery school this afternoon too so hopefully the interaction with kids his own age will be a big help.

I do try and lie with him for as long as I can (usually about an hour) but as soon as I go back downstairs he's up and down up and down.

He does have the no added sugar squash... What is the stuff they put in it? I'll keep my eye out for that and avoid it. Nope, not had a daytime nap now for over a year even though I have tried to get him to lay on my bed with me.

I am going to get some blackout blinds/curtains for his room I was looking at some the other day and am just waiting to get paid before I get them.

I try to take him out as much as I can and for a couple of hours at a time, I dont drive so we walk everywhere and go to the SureStart centre.

Luckily he's a fruit and veg fiend and the most processed thing he eats regularly is fish fingers or bish bingers as he calls them and we probably have a lazy food day once a week when I am not in the cooking mood but everything else is home made. We do have a food issue with him though as in he eats like a sparrow but I dont force the issue on him he'll eat but just very little.

I've mentioned the way he acts and sleeps to the Dr before and just got fobbed off and said its a phase same with the HV. His attention span can be quite pants at the best of times and gets bored very easy even when we're doing something together. He can get quite aggressive to with his toys and does break them when he cant do something eg those Transformer cars that turn into robots if he cant do it he screams and breaks them and gets quite angry.

Sorry my reply is all over the shop it's feeding time at the zoo. My word It's an essay, sorry I got carried away

Also look out for Monosodium glutamate in things like stock cubes if you cook. My friend's DS was sensitive to it, also oranges and anything orange including sweets, jelly, fresh juice and squash, etc and chocolate in all forms, bars, ice-cream sauce, biscuits/puddings/cakes, drinks. He used to be uncontrollable after eating any of these things, but when he didn't eat them he calmed down considerably and his school work and concentration significantly improved.

You also need to talk with DH about how you need to both be consistent in discipline even if he thinks you are too strict and you think he's too lax, you back each other and present a united front. Discuss options for consequences of bad behaviour you both agree on and stick to them. DS needs to understand that even when Daddy is at work he still agrees with you if you need to give a consequence.

He probably doesn't need as much sleep as some kids, but it sounds like there's been a few big changes too

Stop the mad half hour thing - that's winding him up. Instead, do bath with toys in or sitting with you reading, or doing a jigsaw together etc

I wouldn't go down the line of lying with him personally. Mine have taken hours to go to sleep sometimes

Sticker chart not punishments work better

Stories to listen to in bed? Night light?

Most importantly - consistency. Or perhaps dh does bedtime if he knows best, humph

He probably doesn't need as much sleep as some kids, but it sounds like there's been a few big changes too

Stop the mad half hour thing - that's winding him up. Instead, do bath with toys in or sitting with you reading, or doing a jigsaw together etc

I wouldn't go down the line of lying with him personally. Mine have taken hours to go to sleep sometimes

Sticker chart not punishments work better

Stories to listen to in bed? Night light?

Most importantly - consistency. Or perhaps dh does bedtime if he knows best, humph

I have a thing for orange sweets so I pinch them all however he loves fresh orange, orange squash and sucking oranges then giving me the left over bits.

I didn't realise how much food affects behaviour! I thought it was just E numbers and blue colouring.

DH rarely does bedtime I do almost all the things related to looking after the kids, and of course when Nana has him he is the model child apart from when he dug all her plants up.

God help me in Sept when DS3 comes along! He has had a night light from an early age so will be sticking to that cos he does get scared of the dark sometimes bless him just like me. If I didn't wake him he'd sleep a full 11-12 hours ish and would wake about 9.30. What time do you think for bed time?

I've got shed loads of stickers somewhere that we got from Poundland so I'll give them another go.

I really appreciate all the advice from all of you. Thank you.

OP I feel for you. DS was a little bugger about bedtime like this.

He still only needed about 6-7 hours sleep a night until the age of 15. Went to bed at 11 or midnight, got up at 5/6am. Grew out of it at age 16 when suddenly we could no longer shift him from bed in the mornings. Still going to bed very late though.

Time for DH to do a bit more for and with the DC, no excuses about how hard he's been working, they need him especially DS1. Perhaps he hasn't thought that a 4yo boy needs his Daddy as a good role model for behaviour?

Gosh, he really does sound like my ds! Fobbed off by GP too.
Re the additives, look on fedup.com.au its an aussie website and there is a list of additives and preservatives etc to avoid. the one in squash is sodium metabisulphite and there are different forms/ names of it. once you start looking at labels it amazes you what is in food.
I found kallo organic stock cubes have no MSG or preservatives or other nasties in them.
The preservative in bread, and other food to avoid is sodium and pot. carbonate, again various names and forms. Also I came across some info that said citrus and other fruits are not good either for behaviour.
Not sure how reliable the research is around this, more has been done in Aus and USA than here and they've banned loads of addtives in food now.
Anything is worth a try though isn't it!

Maybe start winding him down for bed around 6ish? And start putting to bed 15 mins after the baby? Def get blackout blind! The neighbours must think we are mad as I close downstairs blinds slightly about 630 to create sense of nightime! I do a big countdown to bed time as well - 20 mins, 10 mins etc and do story in bed. I also tell ds I don't mind him reading in bed for another few mins as long as I don't hear any movement in his room! He sometimes listens to mp3 player which helps him sleep.

Girly, I agree.

We're the weird neighbours anyway! But, we don't see the ones either side we just hear them. I will ave a look at that website later on tonight. Yes, anything is worth a try I've even thought about gaffer taping him to his bed

He's playing nice with his cars now. I've found a website that does really cheap blackout blinds as the babies room will be getting one when my mother dearest gets round to buying it!

I'll be trying the earlier bedtime tomorrow night as I've got a girl coming round later dropping off a Nipper I won off Ebay. I'll sit on my bed and keep putting him back in his.

and to you all.