i have allowed alot of bad habits to creep in and now i dont know how to fix things

[IAmBooyhoo]

i dont feel i have any control over my children anymore except for shouting at them and i hate it.

pre ds2, ds1 and i got on really well. he was a great child, he went to bed at 7pm and went straight to sleep after 1 story, he would never come out of his room in the morning before i came in to get him, he behaved at the table and was a joy to take out to restaurants, he didn't tantrum at me, i never had to send him to his room, one warning was enough for him to stop any naughty behaviour. he was a really good child and people used to tell me so.

i had ds2 just before ds1 was 4. i suffered from PND and TBH everything went to pot. i dont know how it happened but discipline doesn't exist. naughty step is a joke as neither of them stay on it. (ds1 is almost 7 and ds2 is 3 next month) they are both cheeky and answer me back or blow raspberries if i tell them off or tell them not to do something. they fight alot, they wreck their room instead of playing nice and quiet in it. they dont do anything i ask, i nag and nag and they say they are doing it but they are messing around (things liek putting toys away) they draw on their bedroom walls, ds1 has destroyed his mattress only a couple of weeks after i bought it new for him by cutting it. they can't be trusted together alone because they either get up to mischief or they fight and hurt each other. at times they get on really well so it isn't always fighting but the fighting gets to me. they never ever go to sleep when it's bedtime, i do bathtime and story and then i switch their light off, they get up and turn it on, they play and mess about and wreck their beds and room. they jump from bed to bed and onto the floor. i go up to them umpteen times a night and they always say they will stay in bed but they dont. i shout and get cross but it never works. i just dont know what to do. i dont feel i have any control. they run rings round me. i started reading 123 magic but tbh it seemed like it was just putting in them in tehir room to destroy it for a few minutes then letting them out and not even discussing it. i dont want it to be ok for them to destroy their room. i want them to respect it not use it as a punchbag for their tantrums. they do enough of that already. i really need to stop teh shouting. it's everyday and it's doing no good at all. we follow the same pattern, they are naughty, i shout, they say sorry, then tehy do something else naughty for me to shout again. i hate it. i just want them to do what they are told. to stay in bed when it's bed time and not look for mischeif the minute my back is turned.

I had loads of trouble after DD2 was born, but DD1 was only 2 at the time. My children are now 4 and 2, but I also had PND. Are you on your own, or can you get help from your partner or another adult? I know that the root of all my problems are to do with attention.

Can you give DS2 attention while DS1 is at school? By that I mean spend 30 minutes a day just playing with him/reading to him etc and not trying to do your jobs?

Can you stagger bedtimes, so that DS2 goes in bed first, and then spend 30 minutes with DS1 while DS2 is in bed? It sounds as if they are in the same room, so I appreciate this might be difficult, but if DS1 was downstairs, DS2 wouldn't have anyone to play with, so might be settled by the time DS1 went in.

Do they respond to reward charts? If I come up less than three times tonight you can choose a treat out of the bag when you have had your breakfast and got dressed in the morning (that way they also have to get going in the morning if they are going to have their treat before school - 2 for the price of 1) if they dawdle they still get the treat, but when they get home.

My treat bag mostly has mini boxes of smarties, play dough, lollies and occassionally small toys, rubbers etc (and hairgrips, but that's no good to you)

Try and notice when they are being good. Praise, praise praise when they are. My friendly child pshchologist says 8 good things for every one bad.

Try and pick a day when you think you have a good chance, maybe when you have a grown up helper about and say to your kids (you might need to do this one at once)

'I'm sorry I've been shouting so much recently, and it isn't very nice. From tomorrow I'm going to try and stop shouting so much, and you can help me by doing XYZ' try and say 'look after your room' rather than 'not wreck your room' so you are making it positive.

If we can manage to have a nice day tomorrow, then on Sunday we will....

(go swimming, go to the park whatever)

My DD1 was only 3 when we did this, but she really got that I didn't want to shout, and she didn't want to be shouted out. It's been a long slog, but suddenly the naughty step has started working for us. Even if it doesn't make much difference to their behaviour, it was a lot nicer being me when I stopped shouting constantly. Actually her behaviour has improved vastly, but is still a long way off perfect (she used to be very, very violent)

Try and sleep now, and see what everyone else has said by tomorrow.

thank you for your post. if i could 'like' posts on here i would like yours.

yes i am on my own. we have had a rough few years and i think i always felt as if stuff was happening and i would tackle behaviour once this thing had settled down but of course something else would happen and i ever sat down and thought about how i was going to deal with things.

i'm going to try all your suggestions. i just want to get back to a point where i feel like i have two good children rather than constantly fire fighting.

thank you. i will get some sleep now and read again in the morning.

First thing is if you have been ill with PND (me too) eveything is so hard - have you been to the doctor - you need to look after yourself

Second thing is - I saw they have drawn on the walls etc (mine too) my fault for leaving pens where they can get them. New rule all pens paper scissors everything like that downstairs and downstairs only. Re-childproof. Nothing they can damage and nothing they can use to damage.

Mine were sharing a room up til recently, they egged each other on, well rather DD2 is more, um, lively, and DD1 egged her on. i have split them up. If you are stuck for space can you have the little one go to bed in your room and older one in own bed and they are not allowed to leave their bed/room and when you go to bed you can carry little one to bed?

Splitting ours up has made a world of difference in carnage.

thanks sardine. no i haven't seen the gp. i've been putting it off as i really dont want to take medication that i could become addicted to.

i've moved all the arty crafty pens, scissors etc to the kitchen cupboard. somehow something still sneak up to their room and the drawings/scribbles have been done before i know it. if i took everything they could damage out of their room then they would have nothing in it. ds1 throw's his cd player, his toys, his clothes, his books even his shelves when he gets into a tantrum. he has damagied his bed as i said. he has thrown things out his bedroom window before in bad temper. and beleive me i have considered taking everything out and making him sleep on the floor for a night but obviously wouldn't do it. although i felt like it at the time.

they are sharing and right now it isn't possible to separate them as we are moving and have lots of stuff stored in or box room. anytime i have let either of them sleep in my room without me there they have gotten into my make up, nail polishes, creams. some of my furniture is now destroyed with nail polish. my bed isn't even a year old. so i refuse to let them in my room at all now.

this has actully led to a row today with ds1. he's currently tantrumming in his room. i heard them both playing in my room and called them out. ds2 came out and ds1 shouted at me to shut up. i warned him that if he misbehaved once more then we wouldn't be going to our treat this afternoon (its a musical they were both looking forward to)ds said he didn't care. i said fine and left it. then i heard him back in my room again, came up and told him to come out he screamed at me to leave him alone. i said "right we aren't going to [musical] today" he screamed "fck you" so i told him to get to his room. he has thrown things about it and shouted at me that i am a bitch. when he has heard his brother singing and talking he hs shouted "fck up ds2" to him. i have ignored all this. he came out a few minutes ago and growled at me that he wanted to say sorry. i could tell he wasn't sorry at all so i sent him back to his room and he gave me the middle finger. jsut to clarify, none of these behaviours (middle finger, swearing, throwing furniture) are things he has seen at home. i dont do any of those things, the swearing and middle finger is something i have seen the other children outside doing to each other. (1 of the reasons we are moving) i try to ignore it and hope he gets bored of geting no reaction for it but it really upsets me that my son thinks it is acceptable to speak to and treat me like that.

OK well I only have little ones so have very little advice on how to handle your DS1.

I am not surprised you are depressed BTW it sounds like terribly hard work. I went and got some ADs and they have made a lot of difference, I wouldn't rule out the doc, you need to take care of yourself.

Mummypig had some good ideas to try I'm sorry I can't offer any other advice. I hope that you can manage to turn things around and maybe some other posters will come with ideas too.

Not everyone likes Supernanny, but she does make sense.
Draw up a list of expectations with rewards when they're met (marbles in a jar, stickers on a chart, that lead to a tangible reward) and sanctions (naughty step/spot) when they're not.

It is going to take persistance and strength for you to carry it all out, but if you can manage it you will be able to take back control of your family.

And if you need outside help (GP, family, whatever) don't be afraid to ask for it. You need help and backup.

And if you can, don't get drawn into arguments (easier said than done, I know), just repeat your request and if it's ignored then it's the sanction.

And finally, don't beat yourself up. You've had a difficult time but you love your children and you want a better relationship and you're prepared to sort it out.

Good luck!

I only have a very little one so I can't help too much, but I do remember that when I was young and played up to the extent your DS is my parents did actually take everything out of my room. I got it back by being good. I had several clear warnings that if I continued to trash my room they would take all my stuff away and when I didn't do as they had asked, I came home one day to find it all gone.

I don't know whether this is too harsh nowadays but I think if my DD was playing up like your son is doing and not respecting her belongings then I would take them away.

Good luck, you sound like a great mum who wants the best for her children x

thank you all.

sardine i haven't totally ruled out the gp. i just keep telling myself that things will get better on their own and that it's circumsances making me down rather than the PND. i feel as if i shouldn't even be calling it PND as ds is now almost 3.

nanny i'm going to write a list now of behaviours and expctations. but tbh, i dont evn know what i want spcifically. i just want thm to do what they're told and be nice to each other and to me. how to i put that in list form? also, is there anything you would suggest to use other than the naughty step? it just doesn't work for us. they get stright off it and run away laughing. it exhausts me tbh and i end up giving up and jsut shouting at them to say sorry. i dont want to re introduce that and them to think "wahey, lets have a bit more fun with mum".

lexie i'm not sure about taking his stuff away. i can only imagine if he told his dad or his school what they would think of me. i did a less harsh version before where i took all toys and books but legft jsut the furniture and empty shelves. it doesn't seem to have changed anything if i'm honest.

i decided today that i wasn't going to let ds2 miss out on the musical because of ds1 so i phoned my mum and asked if ds1 could stay with her while i took ds2 to the show. i felt awful doing it and ds1 huffed the whole way in the car. after the show he was in good form but we didn't mention teh earlier behaviour until thsi evening at bedtime he said he was sorry for all his bad behaviour and that he would try hard not to be naughty again. i think my mum had a word with him because he normally wouldn't have done that. they are both in bed now very quiet. ds2 got out quite a few times but i kept putting him back and he has ow settled (i hope) i just want it to be like this every night.

I'm going to comment tomorrow as I feel your post and have had some good outcomes to similar behaviour. I really understand how horrible this is for you.

Hi Again, I have two boys 4 and 3 and your post resonated with me. I'm afraid that over Easter I was a screaming banshee who's children must of wondered where their mummy went?

My two often get up to no good and sadly DS1 often 'runs away' - last time he made it two blocks away and I was devastated. We had a good chat when we returned home and I told him about kidnappers and the like. Unfortunately, he did this because he didn't want to wear his night nappy and when he didn't get his way, he ran away. He's a strong character and this doesn't help me in the slightest.

DS2 woke one morning at 6am screaming I went in and asked what the problem was and he said that I was yelling at him -this was a terribly sad moment when I realised my little boy didn't have nightmares about monsters, but about me. I then realised that I have to stop yelling and gain control another way. First I had to enjoy them again and allow us all to enjoy things together. I've since introduced a reward chart and it has been working really well for us. The boys are excited to do good. I have tried to not shout and although this can be difficult at times, it really does make things easier in the end. I have also downloaded the Supernanny book by Jo Frost and I am finding it helpful. I actually went straight to the back to see if there was a section on how to find her to get her in our house - sadly there was no such section.

I really hope you can find a way to make each day a bit easier than the last. It's not easy and if possible, can you get some help so you can have time to yourself regularly to recharge the batteries?

Hi, I know what you are going through, I shout too much and feel so guilty that I then go too easy on them so they then get all 'entitled' when they don't get their own way. It's a bit of a vicious circle.

I am now seeing a counsellor at the doctors to work through my boundary and no means no issues and help me stop shouting.

Can you use moving house as an opportunity to pare their rooms right down. They can then earn items back by being good?

It sounds like they have some really bad influences around them so maybe things will get better with moving?

I thought the suggestion about having special time with each of them was a very good one.

Good luck xxx

I understand your reluctance booyhoo to see the doc. DD2 was 1.5 when DH frog-marched me to the doctors. I simply was not getting better. I am sure mine is situational as well - having small children doesn't agree with me which is a shame - but whether it's situational, hormonal, chemical, whatever - the result is the same. Of course you can call it PND.

Just saying that seeing the doc isn't a "failure" and it might help.

Other than that, good advice on here.

thank you all for being so supportive.

i definitely dont see talking to teh gp as admitting failure. i can totally see where my struggling is coming from and i know others might struggle in my shoes too so i dont blame myself for feeling this way. i just keep hoping it will get better by itself. but yes there comes a time when i have to say, "nothing 's improving, i need to do something"

thank you whizzkid for getting back to me. ds1 also has a habit fo running whenever he doesn't get his own way.

we haven't actually got a house yet and i know thsi is adding to my stress as we have to be out of this one at the end of june. but yes good idea about using the move to re arrange their room and hold back some (all?) of their toys and books.

i think you are right about learning to enjoy them again. i always feel like i am rushin to get things done and befor ei know it its bedtime and i've hardly sat down with them at all. even our weekly dvd nights have fallen by teh wayside a bit so i need to forget about the hosue and just focus on playing with them and reading with them, getting out of the house with them etc.

their dad has decided he is going to start having them overnight now which would mean alot to me as i could then have a bit of 'time off'. he's yet to arrange anything but hopefully he will make it a regular thing.