Five year old ds terrible behaviour at school

[Levantine]

I just had a phone call from ds's teacher to tell me that he had picked up another child and thrown them onto a mat. During reading time, no obvious provocation apparently. Earlier he had hit someone and she had heard another child say 'you see x that's why no one likes you'

He has had behavioural issues like this before but I thought things had got better. His teacher thinks he his struggling now that work at school is getting more focused.

Their way of handling it before was to stop him having playtime, though I put an end to this when I found out as that is the last thing he needs is less exercise.

I have no idea what to do and I don't have that much faith in the school tbh, it is a church school and quite academic and old fashioned. We need to move hi, but easier said than done (London)

Any ideas?

Get an appointment with the school SENCo. There may be something going on there, which discipline doesn't seem to be solving. Does he see much anger at home? How does he behave at home with siblings etc? How do they treat him?

Can I ask what consequences you asked the school to initiate instead of missing a playtime and what is the school behaviour policy? If the consequence of wasting time during lessons is that their own time is wasted during playtime (e.g. they had their playtime during lesson so therefore have to work when others are playing?) As your child's behaviour may be exacerbated if rules and boundaries are not consistent and reinforced by both parties (yourself and the schools) it is essential that consequences are put in place as a result of actions. It is about working in partnership with the school and not battling them in order to overcome this obstacle with his behaviour.
Could you give your child the additional exercise he needs and therefore the boundaries that the school set can be consistent with all children?

I asked for a meeting with his class teacher and the dep head who is in charge of behaviour management. Senco is a good idea.

He is never violent with friends at home and is generally good at making friends withi other children, he is very outgoing.

He has a toddler brother, who he can be quite rough with. We need to clamp down on that, definitely. He is also quite often rude and defiant at home to me, not so much to DH.

slipslider They came up with some sort of compromise whereby he misses the first ten mins of playtime. I take your point about consistency, but we give ds exercise every day after school as it is.

He says he really wants to be good at school, he seems to really struggle with impulsive behaviour.

Op, sorry but I don't think it's your place to interfere with the schools form of consequences tbh. If its their policy to stop ALL children who misbehave from having playtime, it seems to me you are sending the wrong message to your child.

There are rules to be followed at school, just like at home and you would expect your child to follow these rules and if he doesn't, he has to accept the consequences. By deciding that you do not find the schools consequence acceptable-what message are you sending your dc?

"Their way of handling it before was to stop him having playtime, though I put an end to this when I found out as that is the last thing he needs is less exercise. "

This, and the way you phrase it is a bit of a warning flag to me "I put an end to this" rather than "we discussed the best way forward and agreed.....". I get the feeling that you aren't working with the school on this- I suggest that you arrange a meeting with his teacher and the SENCO. even if he doesn't have an identifiable issues, the SENCO should be able to help him with strategies to manage his impulsive behaviour.

Also OP, you said his behaviour at home can be disrespectful at times, do you think this is carrying over to school?
Do you have clear boundaries and consequences at home?

I definitely agree with talking to the school, before you make a decision to move schools. There may be strategies you can put into place together to help your dc, if you can address the problems together then it will benefit your dc in the long run, rather than having the same issue at another school.

If he is getting mixed messages from the school and yourself then he will know he is to sit still but not sure when or he will realise the consequence will not be the same as that of his peers and so he kind of 'gets off' with his behaviour and therefore finds no incentive to try.
If he really struggles then may I suggest some play dough or a squeezy stress toy, something he can fiddle with on the carpet which stops the little wriggles. I find this helps some children who 'have to be doing'. It gives them change to still be doing but it keeps them focused when they should be.

Your ds sounds like mine at that age, and the school's initial consequence of keeping him in at playtime was a disaster. My ds found school a very difficult environment, was/is also very impulsive and also very easily frustrated. If the opportunity to let off steam was reduced then his behaviour just got much worse. In fact consequences really didn't work very effectively full stop at that age, because he just didn't think before he acted, even when he faithfully promised he would (he was generally very remorseful and even quite insightful after misbehaving). He didn't hurt other children (at least intentionally) but had huge tantrums, including throwing his shoes around.

There were some question marks abut possible autism/ADHD and he had lots of referrals all of which came back as having some traits but no significant problem. The school put in some interventions, but essentially said we'd probably just need to wait until ds grew up a bit. We were lucky because the school had a unit for children with behavioural problems and so had access to lots of visiting expertise (although the SENCO was pretty useless) and a sensory room which school found a really effective bribe, as often what he really needed was just some time out. He also had a star chart long after the other children had grown out of them, and we got the school to tell us about every episode of bad behaviour so we could follow it up at home.

He's almost 13 now, and his behaviour has become much more socially acceptable, although still pretty impulsive/stupid at times. We did discover he was dyslexic, and he is also very bright, so some of that early frustration was very genuine.

It sounds to me like fairly typical (if unacceptable) 5yr old boy behaviour.

Has the school said they have any concerns re SENCO issues? Or just that his behaviour is inappropriate and overly aggressive?

If you rush to change schools on the basis of this alone,you might find yourself upping sticks every year unless the root causes of the behaviour are tackled and dealt with.

You need to work with the school and help your son curb his aggression, (which you say is also present at home with the playing rough and mouthing off)

He is only little, but IMO he is old enough to realise actions have consequences and throwing the other kids round and hitting them means he loses privileges.

My son had trouble coping when school got more "learning" than playing. We had many talks about why this could be (we recently moved house, which was not smooth). We can up with a few strategies to help
Him eventually control his impulses.
1, he does kickboxing class to let out aggression. The kb teacher is very strict about only doing it in class, and helps my ds focus on whats the adult in charge is saying.
2, he has a reward jar at school and home were every time he does something positive he gets a little monopoly house put in. If its filled at school
He gets a little reward. Ds likes to draw, so they let him do this for a little while. (other children in class also have individual jars as well as a class jar). Sometimes he fills it more than once in a day
3, ds is on a ilp, individual learning plan, so all the adults who interact with him know the things in place so its consistent.

4, when poss an adults will seat near him got carpet time or assembly, they have learnt to recognise when his behaviour will "change" and distract him, give him possitive reassurance to keep sitting well.
5, i gave him a golden rule, "think before you do anything and say to your self am i allowed to do this or will i get in trouble". I know this is what everybody should do automatically, but for some reason he doesnt. Repeating this and just saying it in a daily basis is helping him to remember it.

With these in place we are getting there. Its not a complete fix, we still have mot so good days. But we have
More possitive than non at the moment
If we do have a not so gud day the teachers are honest and tell me full story ( ds used to think we wouldnt find out about bad days at school, so we are showing him that we do talk and will know). I just talk to him asking how things can be better then next day remind him of the golden rule.
He used to have a home book, were teachers would right how he had been good or bad. And so would i. This has stopped as its no longer needed as most days are good (at the moment )

Im sorry its so long. I hope something will help. I know how it feels to feel like your stuck in this rut. I would often cry at night feeling i was letting ds down. So i didnt want to read and run. Let us know how you get on. And remember things will get better

Thanks, all very helpful.

My heart sank when they told me about playtime. He is only in reception, and I know his behaviour is much worse when he doesn't get the chance to run off some energy. He literally can't sit still, even on good days at school he jiggles about all the time apparently. The idea of having something to fiddle with is a really good one, thanks.

Clearly we need to be more consistent between home and school, so I will be much firmer about him doing what I ask him to. We do always follow up if they tell us about an incident, so last night he had no tv and had to go to bed at the same time as his little brother.

School hasn't said anything about special needs, but they are clear that his behaviour is beyond 'normal'. It is a good school, but it is very very structured, lots of homework in reception, no free access to outdoor space as most schools round here do (I thought it was an eyfs requirement).

Claire could you tell me more about your son's ilp? Does it contain the measures you outlined, or is there more to it. I think I will start with the 'think before you do anything.....' good idea

That last post was a bit contradictory re home and school - I meant in general we are less strict as a family than the school is iykwim and I think that is confusing ds so we will get stricter at home.

We d always follow up if there is an incident at school

When you say no free access to outdoor space, what do you mean exactly, do they not have a playground?

I understand that children find it very hard going into a structured environment like school, usually the reception class is a little bit more relaxed though, is yours not like this?

I think the key is being consistent at home as well, do that rules and boundaries and consequences are clear and that might make it easier for him at school.
If he is struggling then the school should definitely work with you to put things into place to help

DS1 (also in reception) has also had some low-level behaviour issues (mostly playing too rough, though he did bite another child in the first half term, which he has NEVER done at home, even as a toddler!). Although very bright, his social/emotional skills lag behind somewhat and getting used to the playground environment has taken a while. (He is good as gold in the classroom.) He has been excluded from playtime once for rough play, I would definitely back the school up on this. I have got the teacher to put a smiley or sad face in his contact book every day, if it's smiley then he gets lots of praise, if sad then I follow up with a consequence at home (eg no laptop or TV time).

Looking at DS1 and his peers I don't think it is outside the spectrum of NT boy behaviour although of course not desirable. I would work with the school to get a very consistent and firm way of dealing with the behaviour.

are you in England, OP? and is it a private school?

The ilp out lines pretty much most of what i said school do ie his reward jar, helping him focus or distract him. We are due a review of it soon and im hopeful we have met some concerns. The ilp does not mean he has special needs as in needs a senco, just that they tailor the teaching to suit him personally abit more. And with that in place every adult who works in his class or with him has to do as it says. I have found his kickboxing a huge help for exercise, and discipline. Pm me if u would like more info. As i said im more than happy to help as i no how hard it is as im sure many other mums do.

My ds would have lost it without all the outside play in Reception (in rainy weather they get brollies and wellies!!). I would definitely be moving schools if I had seen a YR school that didn't have majority of play, but it's a bit late now! He did struggle to sit still at the few carpet times they had, and still does in Y1.

One thing to look out for is: is he better in the holidays? There could be some anxiety/ frustration linked to this? How is he doing 'academically' relative to those in class? Is he 'grouped' with his friends or in other groups? How are his friendships? All these things affected my ds.

I do regret not being more 'on top' of communication with the teachers. I tried but was brushed off as I think the teacher saw it as a criticism of her. They never seemed to have strategies to help him last year, so do insist on this, rather than them moaning to you about his behaviour.

I think they key at home is structure. We are quite strict at home, stricter than school, but he doesn't mess about as much at home, because we are pretty relaxed and the kids generally get to play freely most of the time. I did find more battles when I tried to get him to sit down and do things he didn't want to do (reading/ writing) for 5 mins a day! Perhaps try listening to stories on the computer (not 'watching' but just audio', can help concentration). Also enforcing things like tidying up.

You seem very quick to apportion blame to the school.

The fact is, if it's being a church school and therefore "academic and oldfashioned" (?) is not affecting the other children in the same way, then it is not a trigger for your sons behaviour.
You are doing him a disservice by not supporting the school with their behaviour management, consistency really is key.

I agree with you OP - stopping playtime is a ridiculously inapproriate punishment for a 5 yr old. I cannot understand why other people think your are being 'defensive' or 'not constructive' in saying a very form 'NO' to this.

Do meet with the SENCo to discuss this situation and your concerns. He is so little, and this kind of acting out and angry behaviour must have some deeper routes than 'he's just naughty'.

I agree, we need to be more consistent it is confusing for ds otherwise.

He is better in the holidays, and his behaviour is good at after school club, which he does once a week. He did four days there over the Easter holidays and was absolutely fine, it's sitting down and doing structured work that he struggles with. Academically he is in the middle.

He has no real friends in his class, but makes friends very easily normally

It's a state school, inner london

We are inner(ish) London (zone 4), no reason for lack of outdoor play. Is it a church school? I also agree that missed playtime is a ridiculous punishment for an overactive child. It's particularly inappropriate if it doesn't work!!!

They need to work on positively reinforcing when he does sit down and do structured work (maybe they do, depends on how good teacher is). Maybe he could also be given some more active jobs like running messages between teachers (don't know, I'm not a teacher, but I'm sure there must be things they can think of to help him let off some steam during the day). Could he jump up and down in the cloakroom when they see him getting fidgety? There's something my ds does with his hands, where he sort of links his fingers and twists his arms into his chest - he is supposed to do it to calm himself down.

I think there's 2 problems:

• his problem (and yours). He needs to learn how to sit and focus on things he doesn't want to (same as my ds). Some of this will 'come' as he grows up and some needs to be actively taught. And if it doesn't improve, you may need to look at a diagnosis (but this is v early days).

• school's problem. They need to recognise he has a different/ greater need to other children in this area and not expect punishment alone to rectify it. Yes, it does involve some work on their part, but if he is ok at after school club and he is ok in the holidays, then this is their problem to help him with. The point he got to with throwing a child on the carpet must have had some build up ie. he must have been restless for a while. Senco can help with ideas, fidget cushions/ toys etc. Get her on your side, so a teacher that can't 'manage' your ds is recognised as her problem, not your ds's.

The friends thing is a bit worrying. Can you pick a couple of kids you think he may get on with/ you like the parents and start forging a friendship?