Very difficult 5 year old ... any advice for my friend? (Very long post ... )

[Ghosty]

Hi there!
I told my friend that I would post on Mumsnet to see if there was anyone out there who could give her some advice ... she's not a member ...
She is at a bit of an all time low with her little girl who is 5.
We will call friend 'Jackie' and her dd 'Ellen' to keep things anonymous!!
So ... Ellen has always been a feisty young thing ... since birth really ... but tantrums began big time at 17 months ... quite normal as we know but from what I can gather they were pretty full on tantrums ...
Ellen is now 5. She started school in August. Jackie thought that school would help to focus Ellen as she is a bright little girl.
Ellen's behaviour, from what Jackie tells me and from what I can see, is pretty dire at the moment though and Jackie is at the end of her tether.
She (Ellen) basically runs the show ... if she is thwarted she throws the biggest wobblies that would put a two year old to shame ... and she gets 10 out of 10 for determination ... she will not let up until she gets what she wants. Jackie went to talk to the school about it and the teachers were amazed and shocked that Ellen behaves like this because at school she is the quietest, sweetest little mite who never says boo to anyone and is just an angel. She walks out of the school gates at 3 o'clock and proceeds to make her mother's life a misery by whining, screaming, demanding and throwing these tantrums ...
Two examples: 1) After her weekly swimming lesson Ellen discovered that her mum had forgotten to pack 'exactly' the right items for her to change into ... she went beserk in the changing room ... throwing herself on the ground and kicking her mother ... shouting abuse.
2) Coming out of class one afternoon Ellen saw Jackie chatting to another mum ... but it wasn't her friend's mum so she went ballistic ... pulling Jackie away and demanding she "Talk to Amy's mother ... don't talk to Billy's mother - I don't even play with Billy!" ... when Jackie told her to wait until she had finished Ellen went mental in front of everyone and (understandably) Jackie was mortified.
All this is bringing Jackie down big time. IMO she is not a 'soft' mother ... and is not too hard. She has tried to do star charts for behaviour but Ellen doesn't care about them. She has tried talking reasonably and at times has gone the other way and lost her temper ... but Ellen does not care who is affected by her behaviour as long as she gets what she wants. The only thing that sort of works is 'time out' but really it doesn't solve the problem ... all it does is give Jackie some space so that she doesn't lose her temper completely but doesn't have the desired effect of Ellen thinking about her behaviour ... she just comes out again, not a care in the world and Jackie waits until the next time ....
Jackie rarely gives in to Ellen and doesn't give her her own way but it is a constant battle ... 24/7 ... which is leaving her feeling drained and resentful towards her daughter ....
Jackie dreads picking Ellen up from school every day as she does not know what mood she is going to be in and what she will have done 'wrong' this time.
When I was on the phone to Jackie last night she asked Ellen to tidy up her toys ... Ellen lost it and shouted that Jackie was 'mean' ...
I hate hearing my friend sound so down ... she is a good mother (she has another child who is nearly 3 who has a much more sunny nature) ... and a wonderful person ... but she said to me the other day, "I just want to enjoy her and I can't ... I really don't want to be a mother anymore." It was heartbreaking ...

Does anyone have any advice I could give to my friend ... I am at a loss as my DS is a year younger than Ellen and is very different to her in this respect ...
Also ... anyone out there who has a 5 year old that has tantrums like this ... I thought they grew out of them .... ???

Thanks in Advance and sorry for the long post!!

My friend has children who do behave a bit like this and the only thing I have noticed is that they aren't really consistent. ie they 'threaten' but they don't do it. They are lovely people, intelligent, kind, loving but they do 'give in'. I think you should give in normally, but if you decide not to, then DON'T - when you said she 'won't let up until she gets what she wants' that sounded alarm bells for me. The only way to go is when you do decide NOT to do something or to say NO, then that MUST be your final answer. Experts on stalking say that when you let your stalker call you 100 times and you don't answer the first 99 times but on the 100th you pick up the phone, then all you have done is teach your stalker that you have to call 100 times. It's the same with small, determined, stroppy kids IMO. Pick your battles EXTREMELY carefully, but once you draw the line, be utterly unshakeable. Do not give in. It really is the only way.
BTW, even if you (sorry, I'm addressing this post to your friend) don't do this, the likelihood is that they will grow out of it eventually. My friend's dd (my goddaughter BTW) was tantrumming at 7 (yikes) but now at nine has stopped. My goddaughter is very sensitive and highly strung and she reacted badly to any inconsistency, however loving. For example, we went to a National Trust place, looked around and she was good. Then she asked for an ice cream - IMO a reasonable request - mum and dad didn't have anywhere to go on to, nobody was in a hurry and there was a nice cafe with outdoor seating. BUT they said no. She just went off, so they had to offer her an ice cream at home. She was still very upset. IMO I think they should have said yes to the icecream and saved the battle for a really important issue. OR even a trivial one, such as makiing her sweep up her crisp crumbs before giving her anything else to eat. I think very long and hard before giving my ds a definative 'no', but don't go back on a decision because he is stroppy.

Aloha has great advice - particularly the picking your battles and being very consistent.

I would also add that positive reinforcement may help. Loads and loads of praise when she's good (although preferably very specific praise, not just blanket praise, ie not just 'thats a very nice picture dear' but 'i like xxx about your picture, it makes me feel xxx' or whatever).

I must say I would walk away if possible, from the tantrums or put the child in her room and tell her she can come out when she's ready to calm down. That doesn't put the pressure on and force her to stop now, lets her calm down on her own, and doesn't give her the attention while she's tantrumming.

Not sure that's any use, ds never really had tantrums very much. Dd, I suspect, is going to be a real handful (already doesn't take no for an answer goes on and on and on, and when I am very firm with her she bursts into tears and makes me feel like the worst mum ever...she's only 2 1/2!))

My dd just turned 6 sound very much like your friends little one. She has stopped a lot of the tempers in the last year but I dont really think its had anything to do with me, she seems to have just grown out of them. I had exactly the same thoughts as your friend of wanting to enjoy my daughter but not being given the chance. And you really are just waiting for the next thing to blow up. Its dreadful. I am by the way very consistent and she knew that, so if i threatend something, it would happen but it didnt stop her throwing BIG wobblys over nothing.
I would refer her to the water jug thread for when shes at home(!) theres nothing like short sharp shock for a temper tantrum. And I would advise her just to keep telling her her behaviour is not acceptable when its not and making a big fuss when shes good.
I must say I have in the last year said a few times, you do not behave like that in school so dont think you can behave like that here, as my dd is also perfectly fine at school. Shes old enough now to realise that thats a reasonable thing for me to say and it does stop her as she then realises shes the one being unreasonable.
I also send her to her room when she is throwing a wobbly and tell her ill see her when shes in a better mood, she goes off for 10 mins screaming and shouting and comes back apologetic for acting so daft.
I have loads of sympathy for your friend. Good luck to her!

Dd (now almost 7) was a real handful. She still throws the odd wobbly, but is now a delight. I can only echo what has been said, pick your fights and make sure that you win them. Make sure that all the family follow the same rules. Our 'battles came to a head 18 months ago when dd was very 'controlling'. Dh was away, and her behaviour when we were visiting MIl (who we all love) was dreadful. For example we would get to the swimming pool and within 5 minutes she would demand to leave, even though ds was just starting to have fun. She would turn into a wailing banshee if thwarted.

MIL felt that I was trying too hard with her, trying to stimulate her, and entertain her too much. In the end I took her to one side and explained that I wasn't going to take her our of the house unless I could have a reasonable standard of behaviour. This ment that we couldn't go to the Zoo (something we had planned) as I wasn't going to spend the best part of £50 to have a miserable day, with her having tantrums. If she could behave I would take her to the park. And that was all. It seemed to have the desired effect. She realised that I was in charge, and became much happier and content. We had great fun in the park.

Dd is now great fun, and we enjoy each others company, something I thought we had lost. Tell yur friend to stand firm, and everyone will be happier (dd included) as a result. The little girl is trying to be the 'boss' and it isn't making her happy. At school she is happier, because there are set rules, and she feels secure as a result.

Your poor friend, what a stressful time. Maybe with the swimming pool clothes it might have helped if your friend had allowed her daughter to chose (from a limited choice of, say 2 outfits) what clothes to pack, then she would have felt she (DD) had some influence. When you say "she rarely gives in" it makes me think that maybe she is quite rigid about certain things, I don't mean that dd should chose everything (like who your friend speaks to), but offering some choices might give a legitimate bit of control to dd so that she does not have to try and gain it in this very trying and upsetting way. Could she speak to her school and find out what expectations/choices they use so successfully?

This may sound stupid- but a couple of things in the simming bath made me wonder. Does Ellen know that Jackie doesn't know what she knows? usually this develops by 4 and half ish- so she may be a bit late developing that. There is a simple test that Jackie (or a friend ike you) could carry out- its called "the sally-anne test".
here and here

BTW - beofre you read that second one (!) I am NOT suggesting that your friends dd is autistic- in normal kids this develops around 4ish- at 5 if she failed it she may just be a bit late developing it.

Actually you don't need to do the test really- if yur friends dd ever asked questions to her mum like "who was that boy who knocked into me today at school?" (when her mum wasn't there) then she would probably be unable to do the sally-anne test. It's totally unrelated to IQ etc- lots of people who fail the test have very high IQ's.

Otherwise - witht the tantrums for not getting what she wants- they just have be sat out and ignored really. Best to do it at home at first- just walk away and go into a different room- then she can't give in.

I totally agree with Aloha here and I do see it with some of my friends.... NO (for a good reason) means NO and do not change your mind.
Also she needs (at 5) to start understanding what is reasonable and what isn't.... and to behave ! By that I mean that children are expected (this is from pre-school not me!) to know how to behave... wait for turn, listen to adult and "obey to an isntruction" before they go to big school.... these are behavioural attributes. From the examples you give Ghosty.... she seems to ignore these things.... when mummy speaks to the "wrong" mother I "would" clearly state I am speaking, wait your turn and then ignore her.... this IS tricky as she is bound to have a tarntrum and in front of others it's difficult to handle but she IS attention seeking ! And if you do more than tell her off once you are giving her the attention and she gets her way.
This is difficult but I believe if you tackle this strongly and very consitently for a few days you will see the improvement but you cannot change or be half-hearted in the middle of it.
As for the swimming incident,..... well let's say I am always amazed at mothers who agree with a child who says "I don't like this pasta shape" (same brand just different shape)... hang on.... if you start allowing for this when do you differentiate the serious and the "silly". This is THE pastsa for tea.... you eat it and if you don't.... then x or Y or z will ensue (I mean if child is meaning to be "fussy" at shape.... not talking about disliking pasta in general or not being hungry) - so nothing else to eat instead for example.
Same is true for pool.... she brought the "wrong" gear but the stuff is OK anyway (from a mother perspective).... well that IS what IS in the bag - you wear it now and I will just wait until you have it on.... and then wait until she calms down (pretending to read book/magazine AND ignoring her).... if people think she is crazy - let them.... it will only be temporary. They don't have to live with her daily tantrums !

I also think it is important to ignore a child's strops and insults ('You're mean" and calmly focus on what you want to achieve instead.

Your poor friend Ghosty, I do sympathise. Some good advice here already, so sorry if I'm repeating anyone but fwiw this is what I'd do:

Check her diet. I only say this because I have a friend with a dd the same age as my ds (both 6yo now) who used to be a complete nightmare. She was capable of the most enormous* tantrums, completely off the scale compared to other children her age and she could keep them up for a good 2-3 hours. NOTHING would get her out of it: distraction, threats, all the usual sanctions and tactics were useless in the face of her behaviour. Anyway, this friend worried about autism briefly (NOT saying your friend's dd is autistic btw) but in the end went to a homeopath who diagnosed an intolerance to a) sugar b) e numbers c) chocolate. Now, this girl was at her vile-est when she'd had Smarties, which are a lovely combination of all 3, so it was interesting. I've seen this behaviour btw, my friend has another older dd and is a good consistent parent but was at her wits end with this dd. Anyway, they cut out all sugar, e nos and chocolate and she's a changed child. She is still naturally feisty, which is fine, but the absolute nightmare behaviour has largely stopped. I've seen her change back to demon girl again if she's accidentally had sugar (one large tablespoon of ordinary baked beans did it in one case) and the difference is remarkable. I'm not a great believer in food fads (or homeopathy, not sure where I stand on it tbh) but I am utterly convinced that food played a big part in my friend's case. She's still sugar free, 2 years later and knows she can't have it "because it makes me angry". Anyway, might be worth a check although if your friend's dd can control it at school then maybe it isn't food. My friend's dd wasn't at school (she was 4 I think) when this was diagnosed so I can't tell you how she was then. She's fine now though!

• Rules. Type them out, explain them, make them VERY specific and enforce them. All the time, without exception. Aloha's stalker analogy is a good one I think. Don't ever let up.

• Impose sanctions for ignoring/disobeying the rules. Always stick to them. Does your friend have a partner? If so, he needs to be in agreement and the dd needs to know that he will always back her mother up on the rules and their enforcement.

• Agree about consistency and picking your battles.

• I've written about a behaviour book on other threads and it's not for everyone but it worked for us. If behaviour is bad it's written down. 3 things written down = something taken away (a treat, an outing etc). For me it meant I was accurately tracking the behaviour, which, interestingly, wasn't as bad as I thought when I wrote it down and recorded it. It also meant I had to stop and write it down rather than immediately react to the incident so it gave me a chance to calm myself and my ds could see that I was writing it down and taking it seriously. We used ours in conjunction with a star chart and made a big fuss of good behaviour too. IMO you cannot always ignore bad behaviour, sometimes it needs addressing and in our case it was violence, which I consider unacceptable.

That's it I think for now but I think your friend maybe isn't as firm as she thinks she is and she needs to let her dd know who's in charge. Anyway, let us know how she gets on, won't you? And tell her about mumsnet!

I can't quite work out from your post whether the tantrums have been non-stop at this level ever since Ellen was 17 months, or if they've got worse since she started school. I was assuming that they are worse now? If so, then my first impression was actually not to assume it's Jackie's fault necessarily, but that this is a little girl who is struggling really hard to behave all day at school, and as a result is completely at the end of her tether by the time she comes out of school. We have all seen otherwise normal children go off the deep end in the playground when they are new to school (well, I have anyway!) through sheer tiredness, and maybe it's worse for Ellen because she's having to try harder than most? If by any chance there is any truth in this then it will get better, slowly, as she adjusts to this new life and it's less of a strain on her.

Ghosty I have not read all the replies and don't have a comprehensive answer but wanted to make one point. I think the sunny natured 3 year old may be more than incidental to the problem.

Whenever I read advice here or anywhere on bad behaviour and see "reward the good, ignore the bad" I smile (ironically) inwardly because you just can't do that when another child is there and being affected by the bad behaviour of the child in question.

I have a friend with a daughter this age who is EXACTLY like Ellen. (who incidentally has a sunny natured younger sibling) Although the mum is not "soft" as such there is a palpable sense that the mum is almost afraid of her daughter.
I am sorry I have no advice, only sympathy and I am sure she will grow out of it.

We had problems with ds1 at 4 and 5, and they were resolved. I think there comes a point where the term 'tantrum' is no longer applicable. By the time a child is 5, they can be reasonably expected to control their emotions in most circumstances. If they haven't learned yet, now is a good time to do so.

I wrote about our experiences at some length here - scroll down - second reply from the bottom I think it is relevant here.

I hope Ellen finds some help and comfort here. I must admit reading some of the responses, I thought they were a bit rough. We have ALWAYS been very consistent with the kids, and never made threats that weren't carried out; but we still had these big problems with lack of temper control (with ds1 but not with ds2). Some children just find this area of behaviour very difficult to master, and it isn't necessarily due to deficient parenting. Having said that I did not have high enough expectations of ds1; At 5 I thought it quite understandable (acceptable?) for his to be SO disappointed/upset/angry with events beyond his control, that he would lose his temper. For us school pointed out that it was NOT acceptable, and he was quite capable of learning ... and he has.

HTH

Jasper- hope you read this. I'm just wondering why another child is a problem for "ignore the bad type stuff". For tantrums I don't really see it as a problem (except at night- when they may wake a sibling). DS1 had frequent tantrums- really huge screaming fits- at least several times a day. DS2 (sunny as well) doesn't remotely bat an eyelid. I think he's so used to it- he'll look up from what he is doing, but then go on wth playing.

I do have a hard time when ds1's behaviour affects ds2 directly. So for example if ds1 is watching tv he won't go upstairs to the toilet unless the tv is turned off- pretty much sucks for ds2 if he's watching teletubbies. Haven't quite found a way around that one yet- but ds1's tantrums don't seem to accept ds2 at all.

Or am I getting confused- did you mean the second type of situation? Sorry I'm just wondering (I tend to worry about how ds1's behaviour will affect ds2).

Hi Jimjams, it was not really relevant to this thread (Ellen's tantrums did not seem to involve the sunny sibling other than not occuring at school when sibling was not present) which is why I did not expand on it , but in our household nearly ALL bad behaviour in the kids is to do with vying for mum or dad's attention in relation to the other siblings.

This may take the form of thumping the other kids'taking their toys/generally winding them up. My 4yo os particularly prone to doing this with this two younger siblings.

When one child is on their own with either me or dh or anyone else for that matter thay are completely angelic!

I observe my friends who have only one child and wonder what they ever have to "battle " about because all our battles are inter-kid battles

We may be in a slightly unusual situation as our three were all born within three years so there may be an enhanced sense of competition

Ahh I see Jasper. Definitely tricky. We don't have that problem as ds1 is sooooo passive that he instantly gives up any toy to ds2 (almost 3 years his junior). DS1 does get very cross when he tries to kiss ds2, and ds2 runs away, but otherwise they tend to operate in slightly different spheres.

Thank you so much, everyone, for your input ... I will print off this thread in a few days to give to my friend.
To reply to individuals ...
Aloha ... I definitely agree with what you said about consistency - it's like the rule with Controlled Crying isn't it ... if you give in and pick up your baby after 15 minutes all you are telling it is that it will eventually be picked up if it cries long enough ....
I talked to Jackie about consistency and she is pretty consistent .... but then again she said she is only human and so sometimes when things get too much too often she can't help but give in ... but as a rule she is consistent ....
Anais ... picking battles is a good piece of advice ... I will pass that on ... thanks ....
Charliecat ... LOL at jug of water - I remember that thread of ages ago ... I will tell Jackie about it ... I think it may appeal to her.
hmb ... Jackie this week told Ellen that same thing - about going out - and gave what I thought a good goal to work towards (my DS' party) but unfortunately Ellen blew it on Friday and can't come to the party ... did Ellen care? No, she told her mum that she didn't care as my DS wasn't her friend anyway!!
LHP - that is exactly what Jackie has done ... since the swimming incident Ellen is now responsible for making sure her bag contains what she wants it to contain ... so now there is no problem there but if it is not one thing it is another ....
jimjams .... very interested in the 'does she know that mum doesn't know what she knows' concept ... never heard of that ... will talk that over with Jackie ... thanks

I will come back to others later ... have to go now ...

Thanks for all your wise words again ...

Ghosty I have had one more thought regards my own "Jackie" and Ellen".

Jackie is a gentle, "soft" and passive person by nature.

Ellen is bold and boisterous and a generally "in your face" individual.

There is a straightforward personality clash going on between the two of them which adds another dimansion to the parent/child dynamic.

It could also be related to tiredness, especially as she can flare up after school. My dd will have these tantrums if she has been too busy, especially after a socially active weekend.She has quiet times were she can unwind in her room or on her own somewhere colouring or reading. If she doesnt have this then she becomes horrid.

If it is any comfort to your friend, my goddaughter - the very highly strung one still throwing mega-tantrums at 7 is now nine. She's still very sensitive but highly intelligent (like Ellen) - and doing brilliantly at school, she's sociable, writes poetyr, reads books like you wouldn't believe and her behaviour has improved immeasurably.

Ghosty, I just wanted to back up something Tamum said earlier, as a teacher, I know that loads of kids find the first term/year at school really hard. They love school, and are very good in class, but the effort of being well behaved all day is exhausting, and as soon as they get out of school it is almost as if they can't be good for a minute longer. Tantrums, tears, whining etc. Some kids are just exhausted and fall asleep as soon as they get home, I guess it depends on personality. I'm not suggesting that is all it is, but it is probably contributing at the moment. If that is the problem, the solution is to continue doing everything that everyone has suggested about consistancy etc.

Also, lots of kids behave differently at home to school. I think it is usually that they respond better to one environment, eg, if teacher is consitent and school is very predictable, some kids thrive on that (and some don't!), and if mum is not predictable they feel out of control. Or vice versa, school seems very unstructured and they find it scary so they behave badly at school to find out where the limits are.
Don't know if any of that helps, but she is not alone, other kids do this too. My delightful goddaughter nearly drove her mum mad for her first term in school. Now in her second year she is more herself again.
Give her our love and hope things our better soon