Help please, re 5 year old ds's sexual behaviour. Normal? Bit long...

[3boysandworried]

I go on mumsnet from time to time but have changed my name for this. I have 3 sons, one 5, and two dts aged 3. DH went to check the boys the other night and found Ds1 in bed naked with one of his twin brothers. They said they were playing having babies in their tummies and apparently weren't touching private parts etc. My Dh called me in immediately. The next day (delicately) we suggested it was time ds1 had his own room and he seemed very excited re my suggestions re decorating it etc and just to have his own space. All fine then going away at Easter to grandparents the three boys had to share a room again and we go in to check them and find ds1 and dt1 in their beds, separately, but having taken their clothes off. they said they were playing having babies. DT 2 was asleep as before. About a week before this happened ds1 said to me that he sometimes went to cuddle dt1 in bed at night. He said it as if it were funny but I got the impression he knew it wasn't quite right and so wanted to flag it up to me. Cue a week later and it made sense. We had further chats at Easter and frankly I was relieved to get home where they now had separate rooms. But this morning we woke to find ds1 sitting in our room on his own silently (slightly odd) and dt1 down the corridor outside ds1's room with his pyjama bottoms down by his ankles. He said he'd done a poo (he hadn't) and needed his bottom wiping. We said he should come to us, we've delicately questioned and had the talk that nobody should touch the area where your swim costume is etc and your private parts are for you alone etc. A little later and ds1 whispers to dt1 in front of us, and when we asked what he said he said he'd asked dt1 to come to his room for cuddles. It was the secrecy that felt worrying. I don't really know how to handle this, we feel we've lost our bearings a bit, all behaviour seemed innocent before and now I'm seeing it differently. I feel very strongly that I need to protect dt1 and also ds1. The added fear for me is that ds1 is at a catholic primary and although all institutions involving children attract paedophiles there has been a frightening number of situations of abuse in the catholic church, although not primary schools I think? I don't want them to feel ashamed but I'm concerned that ds1 is at a different stage to dt1 (call it phallic if you like) and dt1 also is always forced into the feminised role of mummy etc. sorry If this sounds confused but i'm worried that something has been going on etc or just how to handle it as ds1 is our eldest and we've no experience re what's normal for a 5year old.

He's probably just curious and it's a phase that will pass, I don't think you have anything to worry about regarding the school, I think now u have explained its not on to touch other people etc it'll pass, don't worry x

Thank you laurale31 and thanks for replying. It seems this is one area parents don't talk about which can make you overly anxious. I'm particularly concerned that the 3 year old is protected from a stage he's not at etc. and that the boundaries are firmly but gently in place here. If anyone else has any other perspectives I'd love to hear from them?

I think it's a normal phase that some kids go through. You've done all the right things but if you're still worried keep a diary and maybe see your GP or HV about the behaviour. I've done CP training and I wouldn't find the behaviour overly worrying in itself. Maybe if it was coupled with pica or sudden soiling or other behavioural changes I would be more concerned.

I've read and re-read your OP and I don't understand why it is you're so worried... you have a 5 yr old and 3 yr old pretending to be pregnant, sometimes they get naked and the 5 yr old likes to cuddle the 3 yr old - and?

Small children always seem to be naked, it's completely normal to play at being pregnant or breastfeeding and lots of other things that they see around them.

It's also very normal for siblings to have little secret conspiracies between them - especially if they're picking up on the fact that you don't approve.

The only thing that strikes me as odd is that you see it as sexual TBH, to me it sounds like small children doing what small children do. Fair enough having the talk about not being touched, but I don't see the big concern that you seem to?

Thank you NenNen. It's reassuring to hear. Obviously every age brings with it different and new behaviours and when they are completely new to your own experience of that child and you are new to that age it takes some readjusting. I can see tabulahrasa why you would see it as entirely innocuous and we aren't so idiotic that we don't know children imitate what they see and hear, and like to get naked etc but this particular instance is new for us and him and so its nice to have our concerns taken seriously.

it is difficult to judge the seriousness of what you believe is wrong here, but I think you have an instinct that is worth listening to, However being mindfull that it could be signs of something inapropriate or your son telling you something, but it may not be.

So it is for you to monitor this type of behaviour and seek proffessional advice if you feel his behaviour over steps the realms of what is acceptable or within normal range based on your own judgment. seeking advice from his teachers or GP who hopfully will have a well formed proffessional judgment on child development.

What I dont understand is your concerns around the school because it is catholic. I think that is some what hysteria. You need to decide if you have concerns about the school and what they are, being a catholic school is not justified to be concerned otherwise you would not have placed your son there in the first place.

Personaly I would just continue to do what you are doing, I would not deliberatly seperate the children ad Ds may then explore this behavioure even more to try to understand why they are being seperated. I personaly think it is inapropriate but certanly not wrong and that your son will learn this with some gentle reminders about personal privacy as it sounds you are doing already. My dd is 6 and her friend who is also 6 displays some similar behaviour to your son my dd understands it is not appropritae and silly play as she says and does not get involved when her friend initiates similar games. I think the difference is that I have given dd the message it is not appropriate and her frinds parents dont see it as anything other than exploration and acceptable. Nothing wrong with etjier approach, but It should not be esculated into something it isnt.

I agree with festi. While you may be putting your own adult sexual slant on something innocent, a red flag has gone up and I think you should stay aware. We can tell you what our children do, but we can't see yours, so trust your instinct.

My eldest two are opposite sex and share a room (6yo boy, 4yo girl). They think bums are hilarious and often pull each others' pj bottoms down, but in a loud pull down and run away laughing kind of way. They also have been anatomically interested in each others' bodies at various stages in their lives. My eldest did go through a phase of getting into his sister's bed in the mornings if he woke up early, which I thought was quite sweet but I put a stop to it because it woke her up and she needed more sleep.

My children have played games with their friends that involve taking off clothes/dressing up. I'm quite laid back about it, but I do reiterate that anything in the pant area is private, and insist that they keep their pants on when playing with friends simply because other parents might not be as laid back as me. But I don't make anything secret - and I discourage the children from having secrets. I think it's all normal part of curiosity/learning through play and I think the key is not to make a big deal out of it.

Oh I've just posted about my ds and dd having a bath together. Would appear that this is nothing to worry about then. Guess they are just curious. But I think as an adult you do get concerned and slightly over read situations.

And I was under the impression that msnt was a forum for helpful guiding advice from empathic like minded parents. Madwoman your name says it all, I find your comments both insulting and aggressive. I read neither tabloids nor misery lit, I am simply a concerned mother who hasn't yet experienced this phase in her children. Thank you to those who have understood my concerns but steered me away from being overly anxious and to madwoman and the like, please don't use the anonymity of a forum to excercise aggressive insults. It helps no one and cannot make you feel good about yourself.

OP Mumsnet IS a mixed bag...we've all faced this. I know how upsetting it can be to be to open up, in good faith and in the hope that you will get useful support, and be met with aggressive nastiness. Ignore, ignore as best as you can, and try and take what is useful from the this thread and not let the rest get to you. Remind yourself that MN is a cross section of humanity and there's always one or two....

I would echo what others have said. Trust your instincts - ie all is well but you want to steer things gently away from what makes you uneasy. And I would add that potentially the most damaging thing a parent can do is to leave a child with an uneasy sense of guilt or being dirty. I am not at all saying that this is what you are doing, or might do, just remememberin that that was my chief concern when faced with a similiar dilemma.

Good luck with this. You are clearly a good and thoughtful parent - your DC's are lucky.

Thank you so much doingthehokeycokey. I don't post very often at all and so felt incredibly upset to be accused when I was just worried and concerned. You've now made me cry for the right reasons. I think your comments are very sound and that's exactly what we were worried about, that we should avoid at all costs making them feel any shame. Thank you for your advice and comments.

Just to add my voice, i think it's normal, even though i don't have direct experience. Your DS1 could be picking up on your emotions, which is why he's gone into 'secrecy' mode. Kids that age can be a bit sneaky and if he's picked up on your concerns he's picked up on the fact that he's doing something that you don't like. And he's resorting to secrecy to hide it. I would relax a bit, your DCs obviously have a close relationship and i think that's actually a very good thing and should be encouraged (why shouldn't siblings have plenty of cuddles?). They know the boundaries, you have explained that nobody has a right to their privates but them, and they are now in separate rooms. If the phase doesn't pass then maybe speak to a professional, but my guess is that it's just natural curiosity and will pass. I was probably about your DS's age when i did "you show me yours, i'll show you mine" and there was nothing sexual in it at all, just healthy curiosity. How else are children to learn?

For what it's worth I wasn't trying to be disparaging or dismissive, sorry if my tone came across like that, what I was saying is that what you're describing your DC as doing sounds completely normal to me, so normal that I can't even work out why it's worrying you.

Small children (and 5 is still small) do so many things that would have sexual connotations if done by an adult, they stick things up their bottom in exactly the same way they do their nose and ears - because they don't differentiate at all, they invite people to have baths with them, I've been invited to a sleepover by a 3 yr old, lol...they strip off and start comparing their bits, they frequently talk about the difference between their genitals and their parents.

It's all just innocent curiosity, it's no different to them at that age than any other body part.

If what you've described is all that's happened I genuinely don't see it as worth worrying about.

I hope OP has been re-assured. I think she neds to get this into perspective. Yes, it has been bought to her attention. She now is aware, and notices more, making sure all 3 boys are not cuddlying naked, paying too much attention to each others willy's etc, generally. Thats it. She is aware. Thats all that is required at the moment.
I was a bit shocked and saddened to see the reference to the catholic school. My 2 are at a catholic school. I think your mind was running away with you there.
Hope you feel better about this OP.