Please help I'm desperate, violent 9 year old girl

[emsiewill]

Yet again I'm back with problems with my dd1 (although admittedly, I've not been around for ages).
She has always been volatile, and we've always had a fiery relationship, but lately she has become extremely violent when wound up or angry.
An example is what happened about an hour ago. We were playing on the playstation, and it froze mid game (v annoying) dd2 screamed (also v annoying), so dd1 hit her. When I told her off, and turned the playstation off (only option to make it work again), she threw the remote control across the room, and this escalated into her throwing 2 shoes at me, kicking me and pulling my hair.
This is not unusual lately. I generally react by telling her that violence is not acceptable, and sending her to her room. She refuses to go, so I try and force her, this escalates into more violence, and it all gets worse and worse.
I know that the vicious circle we're in is no good, and she see me marching her to her room (and I have to be quite forceful as she's not that much smaller than me) as me using violence on her which inflames her even more. However, I can't ignore the violence, it is too extreme.
I do use other punishments (we were meant to go shopping together last week, which I cancelled due to a violent outburst, and today I've told her she can't go on the playstation tomorrow), but I need to know how to deal with the violence when it happens without it escalating as it always does. I can't just ignore it, it's too extreme for that.
She told me earlier in the week that she's having trouble at school with one of her group of friends, which I think may be contributing to her volatility, and we have talked about how we're going to deal with this (I will go and see her teacher if it gets any worse). I'm trying to spend one to one time with her, praise her when she's good etc, but it doesn't seem to be having much effect. As soon as she gets angry, she hits out and it all starts again.
I feel so down about this, it must be my fault, I feel she must be learning her reactions from me (although I don't use violence like this, I hasten to add). I know that the way I'm dealing with it isn't working, but as I say I just cannot ignore it, the violence is too extreme.
Has anyone got any advice, or been in this situation?

Sorry, I didn't read the whole of your post and wouldn't even pretend to be an expert but...our kids have only just been "exposed" to GAMEBOY and PLAYSTATION etc.since Christmas and my son has done exactly what you describe this afternoon. He's usually quite a very intelligent but sensitive boy but these toys can change their personality to totally "unrecognizeable".They are totally different and scary to be honest. It's due to an obsession where they can't tear themselves away from what they're doing. Sad ... but a big part of modern life.

Thanks for your thoughts, but I'm pretty sure this is nothing to do with playstation - she only plays dance mat, eye toy and Harry Potter, nothing at all violent. And as I say, she has always been volatile.

Emsie, I used to be a bit like this after playing...Frogger

Can you talk to her about her temper when she's calm? Take her out for lunch somewhere nice, like a grown-up and tell her she'll get more treats like this if she's less volatile?

Hiya ensiewill. Long time no see. Sorry you're having a tough time with dd and I bet it's not your fault. What does dh think? Have you tried reward schemes? Pasta and marbles are very popular on here atm. Good behaviour gets a marble and agreed number of marbles gets pocketmoney or a prize (eg Beety's son is getting a scooter for 100 marbles, i think.). Bad behaviour gets marble removed.

I think the advantage is that when confronted with very poor behaviour like violence you can say calmly "Right- you have lost X marbles and if you don't stop right now you will lose another." Plus you have to look out for good behavious to reward with marbles which breaks bad cycles a bit.

Hi I don't know much about 9 year old girls but would like to give some support. I do watch alot of the child behaviour shows on the TV the general gist is that violence should not be tolerated at all, and the child should be sent or carried immediately to their room and stay there for one minute of their years 9 minutes in your case. This I have seen succesfully used on younger children but I don't know if there is anything for older children. When they have served their time you must get an apology for the behaviour before allowing them to leave the room. Things usually get worse before beter but once your daughter knows that you will react this way to her violence it might make her think twice. It sounds like you are doing this already. I would suggest don't try to reason with her when she is having a paddy wait until she has calmed down and appolgised to you.
Your doing all the things the 'experts' say, one to one positive praise etc. so stick in there and hopefully get your best friend back again.

Hiya scummy, thanks for your thoughts, and to you hunkermunker.
I have been sort of considering a star chart type thing for a while, but as dd is 9 going on 15, I'm not sure how much it will work. We have used pasta in the past, and when she's in one of her strops and has been threatened with the loss of a piece / pieces, she has gone and thrown them all in the bin herself! Still, anything is worth trying, and as you say, having to physically do something that recognises good behaviour might help to break the cycle.
I have just been and had a calm chat with her, and she seems to be full of self-loathing, she thinks she's 'stupid', but also said that it was all dd2's fault for screaming. I agreed that dd2 can be annoying at times (which is true ) but pointed out that it is up to her to try and control herself. We talked a bit about techniques we saw on Supernanny once for calming down when you are cross (star jumps and heavy breathing I think), and she seemed to think she might try it. It's just that it's so hard to get through to her when she goes into one.

Hello emsiewill, just thought I'd add my experience fwiw.

My ds is 7 and his behaviour deteriorates significantly when he's unhappy at school. Whenever he goes through a particularly violent spell, there's always school at the bottom of it.

Saying all that, you're right, you can't tolerate violence in any shape or form from your dd. I think Scummy is right - keep very calm and take something away that dd values. For ds, it's time on the computer - he's allowed on for 30 mins a day, so I take time off in 10 min chunks for rudeness and worse. But I also encourage him to recognise these "red mist" moments for himself and remove himself from the situation to calm down. Sometimes he does it, sometimes he has to be persuaded. But I do feel we've made a small amount of progress recently, so I'm sticking to my guns.

Good luck.

Thanks Albatros, you are right, I am trying to set a zero tolerance rule for violence, but it is really almost impossible to get her to her room by carrying her, and that's when the violence escalates.

I think the key is to stay calm myself (quite tricky when you are being kicked and abused), not react and be consistent.

It just seems like a loooooong path...

And thanks to you flashingnose (sorry, can't keep up1 ).

Sometimes I take myself off if he won't .

Seriously, they do sound very similar. And you're right, being kicked and hit is no laughing matter (and ds is so strong it really hurts). I'm considering some kind of martial art for ds - someone told me they concentrate on channelling aggression and anger, so thought that might be a good thing for ds (that, or anger management).

Sorry flashingnose, also meant to say that as soon as she told me that there were problems with the group of friends at school, it was like a lightbulb went on.

We are going on holiday over half term (and a week more), so we agreed to leave it until after then to see how things are after a break. If she is no better, I think I will go and see the teacher even if dd1 says things are OK.

Sometimes I wonder whether I should not try and dodge her kicks or missiles, and let her really hurt me (which she could do), to let her see what the consequence would be. But I'm too much of a coward for that

i usually introduce things like star charts on the fairly rare occasions when there's some sort of awful behaviour happening with one of mine and I'm sad to say that I usually do it with a focus (in my mind) on all the pasta I will coldly and firmly take away which will put me in control and them in the doghouse. Makes me feel better momentarily! However, what's always happened, luckily for this bad mother, is that a flurry of GOOD behaviour occurs as the boys try and outdo each other to gain the reward and lavish praise. It really ups the positive, ime and if you're feeling stuck is worth reintroducing if only for that.

I suspect it is a mistake to meet violence with violence as this tends to make things escalate. COuld you just hold her when she attacks? Or try to intervene before she gets so out of control? Agree with talking to her about how she feels when she is violent and asking her to come up with other strategies to help herself (ie she has the ideas, not you). Say, 'You are getting into your angry mode here' and yes, immediate sanctions, firmly applied. Pocket money that is dependent on behaviour, marbles, limiting/banning of computer use. I think making her go to her room is not working and may be making things worse. It sounds really hard on you and I do sympathise.

Def agree with aloha - when I found myself wrestling with ds on the stairs as I tried to get him to his room, I realised a different approach was required...

Oh yes, I can strongly relate to that "I'll show them" way of thinking, scummy.

We sometimes have problems with this kind of thing, as dd1 is almost obessive about things being 'fair' ie "you gave her a piece of pasta for that, why didn't I get one", or "if x was worth 2 pieces of pasta, then y must be worth 3".

I have realised that with her, it's all about control - it struck me when watching the recent series of "House of Tiny Tearaways" - one of the girls was exactly like dd1, everything had to be on her terms, and it was all about control "I'll say sorry if you come here", "Just let me do x, then I'll go to my room". Standing firm is the answer, I know, but it's a bloody hard process.

I think I will try the holding when she attacks approach, apart from anything else, we are going to end up with one of us falling down the stairs sooner or later as I try to drag her to her room.

HI Emsiewill,

My ds is only 5 but went through a similar violent phase when he started school. It nearly always started in the late afternoon with an altercation with ds2 (who is 3) who was nearly always being quite annoying (in that three-year-old kind of way) and when I intervened ds turned on me. After 3 or 4 times of dragging him away and pulling him to his room, I just decided to stand there and let ds hit me. It hurt quite a bit. Not quite enough to make me cry normally, but as I was quite wound up I cried quite loudly and hey presto, shocked ds stopped and that was the last of the attacks on me. Not so sure that a nine-year-old would have a similar reaction, but it worked for me.

Hi Emsiewill, sounds horrible. We've had violence in the past from ds too, it's horrible I know. We've resorted to putting him in the garden, very calmly until he calms down/agrees to behave. If we put him in the hall he can get back in or go out of the front door, neither of which are desirable. I'm half way through Get Out Of My Life, but first drive me and Alex into town, about dealing with teenagers, which says that it's STILL all about attention and contact with us and wearing though it is I find that comforting in a way. Ds also gets things written down and taken away (eg playstation) for bad behaviour and we have a sticker chart for good stuff, plus spontaneous catching him being good and rewarding him for it. I haven't got the answers though, these are the things we try fwiw. Will read the rest of the thread now! Oh, we've also got house rules on the wall and one of them is 'violence is unacceptable' - he helped us draw them up and agreed to them.

Cutekids, I think unlimited (note use of word!) PS2/Gameboy can have a negative effect, we ration it in our house. Emsiewill, I do think you can go for zero tolerance on violence. And if her room is too far away can you do hall/garden or something? I really think immediate removal from the sitation is totally appropriate when you are talking about being hit or kicked, and I also think sometimes my ds WANTS me to stop him, he's boundry testing.

Emsiewill

Do these outbursts only happen at home, or is she getting in to trouble at school because of them? If she's doing it at school too, then don't wait, see them ASAP.

I do have trouble with ds (aged 6) and cos I'm disabled I can't force him to his room either. I have found that the real temper tantrums got less after I put him on Omega 3 (I swore for ags that I wouldn't, but gave in to try it out). In fact, cos he's had a bad cold with vomiting this week, he hasn't been taking them, and we're having a bl%%dy awful weekend with him (hence his hotwheels set is up for sale on another thread).

If you haven't tried Omega3 up to now, give it a whirl for a couple of weeks. It's worth it, given what you are putting up with atm.

Emsiewill, are you noticing any pattern with the outbursts? I only ask as my dd1 (now 10.5) started similar at about the same age. I realised they got significantly worse about the times I had my period (& I was also less tolerant ). Although she had no other 'signs' she def. has 'worse' times about every 4-5 weeks. We had a big discussion about it & she did admit that she felt very tense & didn't know why. Now she knows she seems to be able to control it better.
Also, don't discount the marbles. We use 'tallies' (like they do at school) and she has to earn a number of tallies to go on a special riding course. Now I just have to warn her that she is about to lose a tally & she takes herself off. Note: she doesn't calm down, she goes into her room and attacks her pillow, the method we have agreed on. When she's calmed down she comes back & we discuss it.
It doesn't work all the time, but things have definately calmed down now.

I'm glad your self preservation is leading you here. At 9, fury can erode the difference you think you may enjoy from age, and for her to win a fight is worse than the immediate bodily damage.
I'd escalate hard and swiftly on such behavior. The time for threats is quite literally years past.

The playstion is gone, no arguments. So is the TV and music gear. By "gone", I mean they are in the garage of a friend's house, not just a few days without MTV. Obviously any privilege such as pocket money and trips cease. The family goes on a really healthy diet.

When 2.0 threw such a wobbly before 4th birthday, the posters in his room including the Lunar calendar & St. Shrek, were ceremonially removed.
Was inconsolable.
Message was received 100%. But here, we're beyond that.

This isn't a care situation it's win/lose. Until and unless she realises that being on your side is better than being against you, it's only going to get worse.

Although the advice to "remain calm" is good our kids know the difference between the voice that says "why don't you do this", and "this is what you will do now", and "you are opening a door to a place you really don't want to be".
She isn't picking up on this, perhaps by choice, perhaps because she knows you love her, and limit your response.
I fear you may have been too logical and reasonable.

The next step is an attack on your terms, not a response to an outburst. The less you do at any one time, the more you'll have to do in the long run.

Sit her down, and trash a couple of her CDs.
Open a box with her favourite things in it.
Proceed to destroy them.

She will presumably want you to stop.
Her job is to persuade you that her future conduct will save what's left.
Try to order the items by how she values them.
Start with little things, but almost certainly she will threaten you, and/or strike out. This is to be met with the loss of a seriously more loved item.

Given her conduct you will want a large male friend to help you on this, maybe two. Perferably someone she doesn't know too well, and thus cannot guess how he will react. You want someone that can look "thug" well.

When she has made commitments that you actually believe, the box is taken from the house.
The term here is "hostage". Leave her with school clothes, and some deeply horrible gear. If you have the money pay a trip to ASDA and buy some large Tweenies clothes(embarassing to a 9 yo). Else a charity shop will provide strange smelling "granny" clothes. These are for after school and weekends.

Each week of completely acceptable behaviour brings back a small % of her clothes and privileges.

I haven't said much about the root causes of her behaviour. Can't really bring myself to care at this point. My kids would be met with overwhelming misery at the first incident.

This may sound a little harsh, but this is not refusing to do her homework, this is safety critical for here.
You may choose simply to do the nice clothes/charity shop as a first step. Personally I think the situaiton you describe is beyond that, but you know her.

If this was an isolated lash out in the blind temper of a kid, I'd be talking in terms of a nice quiee chat. Dinner at a restaurant is good for this, make her feel grown up and away from standard environment would make for deeper conversation.
After all this is over, that's good maintenance, but we're not there at all.

There is a non trivial chance that her current path will get you or her hurt. Presumably you are allowing her to strike you with little comeback. Bad lesson for her to learn. The chances of her doing this with someone who will retaliate more viciously is far too high.