Violent 10 yr old dd

[loopydoo]

Well - tonight has all gone pear shaped big time.
Dropped off DH as he's going away with work for a while and before that, i had told dd that because I was feeling unwell, I couldn't take them out for tea.

She went loopy! Started swearing really loudly on the way to car to take DH and then, once we were home, she kept insisting that she hates her name of 10 years and wanted to change it.

I said her name was fine and you can't just change your name.
She then started hitting me (she is very tall and strong for her age) and chasing after me when I tried ignoring her and walking away.

She took the phones so I couldn't call anyone and then threw them downstairs, temporarily breaking them (now fixed).

I sat down on the sfa thinking that I could try talking to her (she was constantly creaming in my face and swearing) but she launched herself at me, smacking me, punching me and then she bit my arm (it's now really sore and blue).

My left arm ,that she kept thumping on the bone, is really painful with pins and needles.

I'm so upset and couldn't/wouldn't smack her as what would that solve?

She said and did all sorts of awful things; tried wrapping the curtain around her throat to 'hang herself', said she would jump from the landing to kill herself and then said she'd go to the meds cupboard and take a load of paracetamol!

Then, to top it all, I was carrying DS' tea through the kitchen and I slipped over on a whole lettcue that she thrown at me and was all over the floor. I was literally out of it for a few seconds (tried saving myself with sore wrist - now even more sore), in which time, she ran off upstairs saying she shouldn't live anymore because she nearly killed me!

This has been a tiring week anyway but now, I feel like I've been mentally beaten up (as well as physically).

Does she need to see a councellor? Could it be pre-menstruation? She had a really wild look in her eyes as though she really wanted to hurt me - she was the little, pretty girl who I breastfed for well over a year and who was always so lovely and polite - now she's turned into a pre-teen monster and I'm struggling to know how to help her sort out her emotions.

My mum simply says she's spoilt but we try to be firm with her and make her unuderstand she can't have everything she wants.

Anyone else have this with a similar aged dd?

The GP won't prescribe mere.

What he should is refer her on - either to CAMHS (clinical psychologist) or a paedetrician.

And those 2 will also not give you meds. They may offer counselling. Or perhaps an explanation.

The only way to get to an NHS psychologist is through your GP.

I don't mean go to the GP for meds!!!

Wasn't thinking about meds at all.

I mean it is a staring point for a referral to a child psychologist, or something like that.

She needs help, NOT meds

Well - just had a half hour long talk with her and it was seemingly a one off thing, she doesn't know what happened etc etc but then, when I said she couldn't spend her pocket money on sweets today, she went loopy again - had that same angry face and then whacked her brother.

I give up!

You can't give up.

How old is your DS? You really need to prioritise his safety and yours until your DH gets back. Can you send her to stay with friends or family? Are you outside the UK? You might want to consider boarding school too..

We are in the UK. I can't send her to stay with family and don't want to; she has now calmed down and is quietly watching tv.

Boarding not an option - we move out of the forces next year for good so once we're away from this, she'll be happier. I think tbh, that moving is the underlying problem. There are no other girls her own age where we currently live.

Oh well - my mum just called and said basically it's our parenting of her and letting get away with too much. She said that she would only have to look at me when I was that age for me not to carry on misbehaving. I explained that in the 1980s, the threat of a smack with a wooden spoon was enough to deter me! Now, there is no underlying threat of that sort of thing and so she knows that all I can do is take away things or tell her off.

Boarding school won't help!

I wasn't too sure about ds having counselling on his own but I helped soo much.

Dh also used to have a tendacy to blowup when angry. He also had (searate) counselling and that has really helped with that. I'm not saying Dh caused it but certainly, I think seeing his dad with a quick temper did not help ds at all with dealing with his own feelings in a appropriate way.

You can also see a family therapist if you feel that would be better. If you can afford it, look online to find someone local to you.

I don't think this is something that would be easy to deal with on yor own at home.

Another thing to double check is that everything is ok at school. Even though her grades are good, there may be something gong on that is worrying her.

Thanks Daftmaul - everything you say makes good sense .

I have asked her again about school - there is always an underlying issue with a friend (who she was good friends with a few years ago before we mvoed from here) but who is now trying to be very possessive over dd.

The other day, she told her that her eyes and hair weren't her best bits however, I know she's jealous of the relationship dd has with another girl so they were probably laying their great friendship on a bit thick in front of other girl iyswim.

Generally though, she says she's happy at school but just can't wait to move back to where we've come from next year as she really misses her best friend.

Oh and the other thing I wondered about was that she may have a UTI. Could that make her more delusional/agressive as it can do in elderly people do you think? Or am I grabbing at straws? I will take to GP with sample next week.

I would investigate everything. A possible uti woud be a good openning to discuss ths with your GP perhaps?

I think she does have some control because she calmed down, had a chat and explained then did it all over again when told she could not spend money on sweets.

Do you usually give in to her?

If she is bright, strong willed and sensitive youhave to parent her carefully.. she has to learn emotional skills, that she cannot always have her own way, and that you are in charge[ but you have to be fair]

It is not acceptable to behave like this. Yes, some people have very strong feelings but acting out like this is very spoilt and out of control.

You need to get in charge, feel in charge and help her sort her feelings out and learn to behave within certain limits.

Is she worried about her dad?

UTI would not make her delusional or aggressive

and yes to avoiding Tracey Beaker and soaps etc

She does watch EastEnders heureuse - but all of her friends do and she said she felt left out not being able to chat about it.

I know what you mean about parenting sensitive children carefully and I've actually bought a book the other week called 'Your Sensitive Child' which might help.....once I've read it.

Had another chat tonight - more about how I want her to learn about respecting others and that nobody can have everything they want etc. She took it onboard and we had a really good chat.

Once DH gets home, we'll chat again. I think her 'thinking' personality doesn't help her. Her little mind is always on the go and always has been - she can never sleep and isn't usually asleep until after half ten at least. She just lies there thinking.

That sounds good but be careful to differentiate in your own mind between understanding her and excusing her.

Don't let her watch Eastenders.. other children may watch it and not copy, but she might take on some of the appalling adult behaviour for herself.

You really need to say to her there are two different parts to this, the part of exploring her feelings and trying to help her emotional well being and control, and the part of her behaving acceptably no matter what and that you are putting certain things in place to ensure this.

..Such as no soaps or adult dramas of any kind, a sanction for her recent behaviour[ think it through before telling her so you don't keep changing it] such as no pocket money or activities for a month and early bedtime.

She needs to know you are in charge and that this is never, ever going to happen again.

And tell her if it ever does, you will immediately call for help from her grandparents and / or the police.

I think you will see a sudden change when she knows you mean business

Don't want to alarm you but a girl down the road for me was treated for uncontrollable tantrums when she was 10 years old for about 18 months. She was put on meds, social workers were involved. Finally after a really bad episode she was hospitalised. That's when she confessed that she was being sexually abused by her mum's boyfriend who would come around when her mum was at work (her dad worked away a lot and had no idea that his wife was cheating on him) and it was just her and her siblings at home.

This girl was usually very sweet and patient so it was totally out of character to suddenly lose her temper to the point she would destroy doors and walls in the house.

For this reason alone I would get her into counselling, there may be a hidden reason why she is so "sad".

loopydoo Sat 17-Mar-12 10:43:07

"She hasn't experienced any relatives dying or any huge traumas in her life (other than moving house every couple of years). I just wonder how a 10yr old can be so unhappy."

Sometimes there is no external explanation why a person develops mental health problems/anxiety problems/copes extremely badly with ordinary life; there is just something within themselves which means they handle everyday pressure badly.

"I know what people are saying when they say about the GP but I really don't think she should have meds."

These days and in this country it is extremely unlikely that a doctor would agree to prescribe meds for such a young child until all possible other avenues had been explored for a prolonged period; the meds that can legally be prescribed at such a young age are very limited.

To give you an idea, dd had been struggling with extreme anxiety (including self-harming) and inability to attend school for over a year before anyone mentioned meds, and even then we were told that we had to wait another 6 months to see if the therapy wouldn't be enough- dd was nearly 15, and they were holding out for her fifteenth birthday.

They will almost certainly want to try everything else first: a plan for anger management, therapy etc.

"A counsellor may help but not sure whether I want her to be on her own for that sort of thing? I think is something we need to work through with our family rather than just her?"

Most likely there will be a two-pronged approach: part of the session (at least at first) will be with all of you together, and part of the session with her alone with the counsellor. They may also decide to refer you for family therapy; though in that case it won't just be about resolving her problems. We are having both.

And don't assume that they will only be taking her side against you: their job is to get her functioning, and if that involves telling her she's got to take responsibility for her reactions, then they won't hesitate to do that.l

how are things today, OP

Firstly I think it is quite addictive to lash out, and once she gets into habit of using that method to release her feelings she will continue.
I agree that sanctions won't help, but immediate response of zero tolerance will.
I was told in an ASD workshop (I know your child doesn't have ASD but what works for more extreme behaviours works well for other situations I find) for my son 10 that, first,
look for triggers for violence, (and avoid those situations or try and reduce impact of them...ie: talking about DH going away, discussing well in advance that you can't go out of tea etc) and
if violence does occur, institute zero tolerance or extinction of violent attention seeking behaviour. Don't reward it by comforting or consoling. Nor threaten things that escalate the out of control feelings (they don't have ability to control themselves then, why should they be able to control it when threatened by things that make them feel worse still?)
So for example, your dd should know in ADVANCE what will happen if she screams and swears or hits you, she goes out of door, she goes to her room, the television gets switched off etc, the car stops, the visit is cancelled. Rather than escalating threats in the heat of the moment. Even something so simple as getting them to go out of the room helps cool down situation if you make sure this is "rapid response" to violent behaviour. No telling off, no negotiation, discussion arguing from you, just OUT OF THE ROOM. It works, we do it with our ASD child and we are starting to do it with his twin sister who has no ASD but gets in rages and throws things etc.

So, 1. Understanding and dealing with triggers (before they happen) and trying to get to root of triggers, this could include pyschotherapy, generally listening, understanding, empathizing, helping,modelling kindness, rather than just giving treats etc...

1. Never allowing violent behaviour to get attention from you, other than immediate "extinction"

My dd 10 has and can be violent, just trying to sort it out now in these ways.

Swanthing, that is how I deal with it too (but had to learn all this through hard experience and messed up a few times along the way...) defo best strategy.

great post v helpful swanthing

She is crying out for help OP. She is talking about killing herself, she is 'acting out' hanging herself with a curtain. She is telling you that she knows how to access medicines that will kill her. She needs your help. Please take her to the GP and start the ball rolling.

There are two separate issues to deal with. One is her mental health, the triggers that cause outbursts, what may lie behind it all. She will need professional psychological help to unravel and treat the cause.

The other is the symptoms, the violence towards you. She needs to understand that this is not normal, hormonal behaviour or acceptable in any way and must stop. Currently, 10 is the age of criminal responsibility. Community Support Officers have visited our primary school to talk to Year 6 children about this. Most of them are surprised and shocked to learn that they can be arrested and prosecuted for criminal offences once they are 10 years old. Even hitting another child in school is an assault. Attacking a parent is a serious offence. They need to know this, perhaps you could ask the local CSO to speak with her.

There could be any number of reasons for her behaviour, physical health, mental health, special needs, abuse, etc. Her GP will be able to help you find the best treatment for her.

It is very unlikely to be a one off. You cannot ignore this. She really, really needs to do something about this for her. Good luck. Keep posting for advice and support x

Hi

I am so sorry about this - my DD is going through something very similar but all her violence directed towards herself. I sometimes wish she would hit me.

She had just been diagnosed with depression and anxiety. She has seen her school councellor but in her case it didn't help. Please see your GP. If you get a referral to CAMHS they will see her with you initially, then it will be decided whether you see councellor together or separately. My daughter thought she would end up 'Like Tracy Beaker' or in the 'looney bin' Councellor explained neither would happen.

I would really recommend you contact 'Young Minds ' for an unbiased view on this. Some posters have suggested your DD needs firmer parenting rather than councelling - they may be right for all I know. If you talk to Young Minds they will advise you on your options without
making judgements on your parenting. I haven't got the link - but google them. (don't bother with their forum - it doesn't get enough 'traffic' - just phone them)

We have been living in a nightmare these last few months - don't wait to ask for help please. This is not a spoilt girl IMO, it is s very unhappy girl.
Please call Young Minds.

Its difficult .. she is obviously distressed to talk of harming herself but you need both approaches imo
hope things are ok today

Found Young Minds link

www.youngminds.org.uk/

They will give you impartial but expert advice, and not judge you as a parent. There is loads of imformation in there too even if you don't want to actually speak to them.

Hope things are quieter today. Hope DC gave you some - you deserve it. :)