Problems behaving and socialising at preschool

[TheHandThatRocksTheCradle]

I work Fridays so my mum picks DS1 up from preschool, she got called in to have a talk about his behaviour. Apparently he has been very deliberately pushing other children, looking round, smiling and then doing it. He is totally unbothered about being sent to time out so it's very hard to discipline him effectively, he seems to have very little fear of consequences. They have also said he generally doesn't socialise much with the other children and is a bit of a loner.
At home he is generally pretty well behaved and is very good with DS2 (almost abnormally so). He did go through a phase of pushing DS2 over and we did come down very hard on him, lots of being sent to his room (naughty step doesn't work as he just won't stay there - I worry that this is not a good thing). These days there is an occasional scrap over toys but most of the time he's brilliant, tries to make DS2 laugh, goes to cuddle him if he cries.
DS1 generally plays ok if we have one other child over but isn't very good in groups, as soon as there are 2 or more other children he tends to come over to the adults or go off and do his own thing.
He has very good language skills and preschool have also said he is one of the brightest children they have, he just seems to be struggling socially.
I need to have a proper chat with them on Monday morning but I'm wondering what questions I should be asking? I'm not sure how I can improve his behaviour at school and I worry about him not having made any friends.

How old is your son?

What discipline method do they use? A preschool wouldn't do time out I think, they must think of a different strategy, and if time out doesn't work for him they need to be creative and think of another system. At home I have two boys and we have yellow card, red card system and very clear rules. Pushing or hitting is a red card, and straight away a toy is being taken off them and put on the fridge for the rest of the day. If they 're-offend' then it's no bedtime tv (they both watch tv for 30 minutes before going up to bed). Yellow cards are for smaller 'offences' and they get warnings but they do get a punishment if they carry on.

Obviously the rules have to be completely black and white, and with two boys there's a lot of 'he started it'.

There is a personality issue if he's a loner, then that's part of his personality, or he might just be late at developing that part of his personality. DS2 has social skills problems (but no behaviour problems) and at school (in nursery and reception) every week they take him and a small group of children and play specific games, and encourage my son to play with others and others to play with him. He has a learning difficulty though, so it was easy to set up as part of his school's individual educational plan'.

You can ask if they know what triggers the behaviour - it looks to me as if he wants adult attention as he clearly knows that what he does is wrong. In that case, could they have little 5-minute one-to-one play time with him, at various points during the session? Maybe lots of positive praises when he does well, which I'm sure they are doing but maybe with a reward chart?

DS1 is 3.9. The preschool do use time out but it's just sitting in a certain area of the room as far as I know (can ask for more details on Mon).
I'm not sure how much room there is for 5 minute 1-1 play as the child:staff is about 10:1 (ish), again it's something to talk about. I do think it's probably deliberate behaviour to get an adult reaction.

Sounds like he could be bored. The staff sound like they are struggling with him. They sould be extending him and trying to plan activities to engage him and stretching him. Has he been there a while? Do they do much outdoors stuff? How many days does he do? Does he like it there? have you asked him about the pushing?
Mabe you could ask for a meeting to ask them how they are meeting his needs as they obviously are not doing so at the moment if he is misbehaving to get attention.

I think its pretty awful that the pre-school approached your mum to talk to them about your son tbh. I would be cross if if any of my staff did that or if the same happened to me and I would be raising it with the pre-school first thing on Monday morning.

As for the behaviour element, well it sounds to me like they need to be doing ABC observations on him, to identify any patterns, for example, is it a particular child he is pushing, is it a change in the routine that causes him to behave in such a way, is it a particular time of day etc... The pre-school should be sharing these with you on a weekly basis and gaining your input as to how he has been behaving at home or if any changes have taken place. Without the observations, it is going to be difficult for the pre-school to identify a reason for the behaviour, or a solution.

Stickers generally work wonders with young children, as well as loud praise. We often use a sand timer with one of our children who has similar difficulties. She sits with an adult for 3 minutes and at the end of it, we discuss together why she was removed from child/situation, giving her the opportunity to not only reflect on the situation, but also to develop the necessary language skills used for resolving conflict with her peers.

Social skills groups are good for children like this. All our children are taken into small groups over the course of the week and encouraged to play together at a particular thing, or to listen to each other, or to hear a social story which then leads to discussion which hopefully reaffirms the desired behaviour.

It is not always possible to have 1:1 time with children in a busy pre-school setting, and I think that if DS is rewarded with this following his undesirable behaviour then it potentially sends the message that being "naughty" results in a lovely, quiet, play time with an adult. It is possible to engage with children throughout the session and if done correctly, engaging them in an activity of interest, and talking to them about what they are doing, should hold their attention for a while, thus making incidences of bad behaviour less likely.

He's been there sine September, started 2 mornings a week his first half term, 3 mornings after half term, 1 full day and 2 mornings this term. I think he likes it there, he seems to really enjoy the morning routine, putting his things in the right places and picking out his name, he generally seems quite happy when he comes out as well. They play outdoors every day unless it's absolutely bucketing down. His favourite member of staff left at half term and I went back to work just before that so there have been a lot of changes. I need to find out whether this behaviour is a recent thing or not.
My mum does most of the pickups and drops now I'm back at work so I have less contact with the school, but yes, it would have been nice if they'd called me instead of hearing all this second hand (and partially 3rd hand as DP spoke to my mum before I did).
I like the sound of the social skills groups, not sure how much of this they do.

yes make sure that you are unhappy with them disclosing confidential info to a 3rd party

pre schoool should have strategies that they can call into play to divert, distract and generally mould behaviour. Young children are very impulsive and DS has worked out that pushing and shoving is a BRILLIANT way to garner attention; preschool needs to be two or three steps ahead of him

It's great that they are sharing info about him, shows they are trying to work in partnership, a bit cackhanded mind you

make sure that you tell them that you are unhappy ...., the first sentence should read, sorry

I might mention it but I don't want to turn this into a 'who told what to whom' problem. Generally the preschool have been very good and I am happy with them. This is more about where we go from here...

Personally if your dm is doing most of the pick ups drop offs then I think it is unreasonable to complain if they talk to her.
If you deem another person to do the pick ups/drop offs regularly then, unless you have said spcifically they're not to speak to them about your ds, I's have though it would generally be considered fine to talk to them. Certainly round here child minders can be called in about a child and I've never heard anyone complaining about it.

No experience disclaimer but what stood out from your post is the way that your DS is 'abnormally good' with your younger child, after you 'came down very hard' on some expressions of anger and jealousy towards that child which match the ones that he's doing at nursery. I would wonder if he has some unresolved anger/ difficult feelings towards DS2 which he is displacing into pre-school. Could you spend some time investigating this (role play with dolls etc. springs to mind) and offering him empathy about those feelings? While you need to sanction violence absolutely, your DS1 might have the idea that his feelings are unacceptable, when really it's just his behaviour you didn't like.

Re the comments about loner-ism etc. I wouldn't set too much store by it at this stage. Maybe he just doesn't have any spare kindness left over atm after being such a sweetheart to your DS2, but this might change, esp. if he gets to work out his negative feelings towards other children with you. But he's only 4 and will probably get the hang of it all.

My first thought is, to find out how he fits into the friendship groups? If he's a pretty good boy at home, just what is it about the nursery setting that is triggering this? I would ask the nursery to do an observation on him - 1 week of taking notes. They shouldn't refuse this. I would be very curious if they did try to refuse - it would stink of staffing problems to me.

Its in everychilds interest that children are happy and settled in a nursery environment and it is up to the adult carers to investigate to the best of their ability. That is what I would expect.

There are often triggers/situations that spark behaviours off and of course these are entirely different in a nursery setting. Sometimes it is due to friendships/clashes etc.

Sparkly - this is definitely something I wonder about too. At the time the behaviour was dangerous (eg pushing DS2 backwards on tile floor) so we just had to make it stop. Removing DS1 was the only way to ensure DS2 wasn't seriously hurt but in retrospect I'm not sure it was the best idea for DS1. However the pushing at preschool doesn't seem to be in anger, it seems to be a fairly planned event. I don't know whether displaced anger would be as premeditated?
Day - I don't think it's a specific clash as it's been different children, inside/outside. Definitely more information required.

He is young and maybe testing his boundaries? Yes preschool should mention it but not expect you to solve it- that's for them in their environment.

Maybe he is bored there. Also, my son didn't really play with anyone he didn't know very well (ie my friends' children and cousins) until nearly 4, very nearly 4 and up to this point was considered "a loner"- I think he's still within the normal spectrum re socialising considering he's still 3. In some ways you just have to wait for them to reach the development stage re making friends, but you can encourage- playing with friends at home etc. For my son though it was like a light going on, he started the primary school nursery at 3 years 11 months and by Christmas aged 4 and 2 months he'd made several good friends and clearly knew lots of the other children for them to acknowledge him on the school run. Before this he made one friend at pre-school!

After all that stress, this morning wasn't half as bad as I thought it might be. DS1 has generally only had occasional problems with pushing and not sharing, Friday was exceptional in that it went on all day.
I have a feeling part of the problem is that my mum tends to view DS1 as an angel who can do no wrong, I'd imagine preschool had to really emphasise the negative to get through that at all.
They are going to keep a detailed record for a while which comes home from each session, we're to add our thoughts and any information from home which might be useful.
And DS1 went off to play with some other children from preschool when we went to the park after school - for the first time ever!

Hooray!