six year old 'anger'

[fultime]

I am very worried about our 6 year old grandson. Over the past six months he has been having 'angry' spells at school, the school have rung my son several times to inform him of this and they have instigated a 'green card' system, which they give to our grandson and tell him when he feels 'angry' to show his teacher the green card (without speaking) then she will point to the door for him to leave the classroom which he has been doing. They also have him go to a room to speak to a 'woman' about his anger. My Husband and I don't think this is a good system and think our son should go and see the school and tell them to stop. Our grandsons behaviour has not improved, in fact its probably worse and culminated in him throwing a chair at school last week. My son said when he got to the school he was lying on the floor screaming 'like a two year old' while the Teacher told my son what had happened. Evidently he got something wrong and was asked to do it again by his teacher and he got in a rage and threw his chair. My son understandly is perplexed as to what to do to improve this situation and we can't help him because we don't know either? He is reasonably well behaved at home and my son has been punishing him for his bad behaviour at school by taking away his 'play station' and he has also stopped his Thurs evening football, which he loves, none of this is making any difference. Any advice would be gratefully received.

Kind regards

Karen Cutler

It sound like anxiety and/or frustration to me, rather than just a naughty child. Does he have any other particular problems that you know of which might be making school difficult or overwhelming for him? This sort of behaviour can occur in gifted children who are not being stretched, or in children with learning difficulties (of various kinds) who are not being properly supported. I also knew a child who exhibited similar outbursst of rage which were totally unresponsive to conventional discipline - he turned out to have hearing difficulties and was just very frustrated. I don't know enough about you grandson - but it sounds to me as though your son/daughter-in-law need to have a proper meeting with the school and try to get to the bottom of it, and possible a check-up with the GP too. I'm sure you will get plenty of useful advice from others too before long

bump

bumpkin

come on, someone must have some ideas!

Ask him how he is feeling,and why he is feeling like that-may get to the problem then.I know that may simple but often just talking to children can get to the root of the problem

dd had a long period of high anxiety and we talked it through

although it may be more - my 12 year old son gets very VERY angry after playing certain playstation games.

try and ask if he plays it in the morning before school. - it may be best to remove the play station and other favourite toys altogether and given back for GOOD behaviour. that way its a reward rather than something that he "shudda had anyway if it wern't fer stupid teachers" kinda thing?

If you CAT me I'd be happy to chat to you on the phone about this. I am a Behaviour Consultant (just starting out in practice) and may have some tips that will help. No charge, just interested in this particular problem and whether I can offer some guidance. Where are you, by the way?

Probably wouldn't get rid of football. This is a physical activity which may actually help him deal with his pent up aggression and give him the feelgood factor too. Try not to delay punishments as even at six this is still on the verge of being a little meaningless hours or days later.

I would also hesitate in punishing at all until you are sure he is doing this willfully rather than helplessly. It is very likely you will be bale to manage his behaviour without punishments, per se. It sounds very reactionary to me so could be easily sorted with a bit of will power and patience all round.

What bothers you most about the green card system (apart from its apparent ineffectiveness!) i.e. why do you think it fails to achieve the desired effect?

I agree about the football... it seems silly to take away his only outlet for excess physical energy. That could exacerbate the frustration.

Are the angry spells always connected with him getting something wrong or him finding something difficult?

My stepson has 'high functioning' AS and one of the ways that this manifests is exactly as you have described. FWIW the way his school deals with this is for him to leave the classroom and talk to his SN support.

I would agree with what others have posted about the football, at 6 this is a pretty meaningless punishment and also taking away something that is 'good' for him.

have they tried relaxation techniques? maybe try explaining there are choices about how we respond to the feelings or situation and about how when we get angry we can walk it away or swim it away or ask for a massage etc. give the anger a name so he can articulate his emotions. how does the rest of the family deal with anger? children tend to hold up a mirror to how we deal with our own feelings. we have to help teach them to manage their emotions. there is an excellent book that has helped us called 'how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk' very strange title and it is american but its got the best ideas that i've come across that do work.
see how to talk website
just a thought but do you think he is too young for playstation? computer games and some cartoons/film really fire boys up and they then re-enact it without understanding the consequences. i'm terribly old fashioned by only letting my ds's watch stuff that i would watch too. peer pressure is a problem though but feel he can have those choices when he's older. there doesn't seem to be anything for boys inbetween. they seem to jump from thomas the tank to star wars! is it a big school? do you think he feels overwhelmed so he can be heard?

Hi

My son does the anger thing, he has health issues but the techniques we are (with some success) using are universal.

Firstly, we have tried and succeeded in getting him to ask for time out when things get too much. the school have allocated atable for this (outside brrr but he seems OK with that), and here we have made the area his room. he does share, but ds2 knows he has to leave ds1 alone for his 'alone time'. DS1 has a paystation in his room for this, but only carefully vetted games- i will not have anger enforcing games, things like tetris or racinga re fine though. He also has Bugs Life, which he plays with dh. We are also introducing jigsaws, he finds them ahrd (poor eyesight) but is getting into them.

Secondly, sleep has been an issue for us- a sleep deprived child has no patience. Could your Grandson do with some restructuring of his bedtime routine?

Thirdly, I am trying to t4ach ds1 meditation, a slow thing as I am learning myself too. It seems to help though, and he willa lso sit and listen to relaxing (he likes classical and G4) music for quite a while, brings him bvack down to earth. he has a small cheap disc player from Asda for the purpose.

DS1 is six and I think this is the age wjere they need to learn some self control. I am sure you will get there.

forgot to add meditation. i regularly meditate and its definately kept me sane - gives me a healthy space between me and my emotions. its amazing how the mind/the feelings can affect the body. i haven't tried with my ds1 yet as he is 5 and thought maybe too young - how is it going peachyclair? the class i go to stopped over xmas holidays and the whole family noticed the difference in me
another thing we use is humour to try and diffuse anger. we call them 'grumpets' and when ds1 starts to get worked up we stop and say 'aha! i've think i see a grumpet, quick stop right there!' and i get my tweezers and go and forage in his ear or up his nose acting out quite a struggle and then seize it and either open the window/door and throw it out or place it on the floor and squash it and invite ds1 to join me by which time he is usually laughing. not sure if it would work as 6 year olds may be too savvy but you never know!

It's going OK. I am having to learn by book sadly at the mo (DH's shift patterns preclude classes) but I got the idea from watching a video on Buddhism at Uni, the Monastery was using meditation techniques with even smaller children on retreats. I though well why not, and he seems to like it. I'd like to learn T'ai Ch'i too, I am looking for a daytime class (DH works permanent evenings / nights)

I'm off to a Buddhist monastery on thursday, so am hoping to get more info from the Monks there and from the book shop.

I can't use humour with ds1 as he basically doesn't have any 'Mum you know that makes me angry when you joke me and I don't like jokes', but I imagine that's an excellent technique with most kids.

peachyclair - sounds fascinating! my dh works during day so have been lucky to start a class last year and love it. we meditate for 50 mins then have a speaker do a talk for an hour. its been the equivalent of 8 hours sleep for me. wish i had done this years ago. had been on a transcendental meditation course which was good but found it hard to keep up when had 3 boys. going to the class has been better as you get to meet some lovely people with it. thought the group would be overly academic or completely flakey which is not the case at all - builders, doctors the lot! would love to hear more about meditating with children. have got a book that i have been reading which has been reallly usefuld called 'dharma family treasures' though as yet haven't had the time to apply it. another favourite is 'the power of now' which has been life-changing.
if you have time please let me know how it goes on thursday
shrub x

Really impressed with PeachyC and shrub's techniques and ideas for dealing with this.

I am currently reading the "how to talk...and talk so kids will listen" book. I put off reading it as I rather smugly assumed it wouldn't tell me anything I didn't know as the book's philosophy is one I share deeply and try to practise. However, I am this week finding myself having to concentrate very hard when I speak to my three children, often rephrasing what I have just said in order to stay true to the philosophy!

As some kind of antithesis to this I am also reading Maggie Mamen's 'The Pampered Child Syndrome' which I expect to challenge all my thinking on parenting!

Anyway, I digress. Please update us all to how things progress for your grandson and the rest of the family. Does he have his mother dealing with this also or is it daddy only? If it is both parents, do they agree on the approaches to all of his behaviour?

Hi all,
Thanks for all the info. Firstly the play station is a new game, the temper, anger etc came first and he has been better behaved since he had it as it is a reward for doing well at school. He dosn't seem to cope well with getting things wrong, sharing, or 'losing' a game etc, he goes off in a sulk if for instance my son is playing football in the garden with him and my son scores a goal. My Son definitely has issues with his temper, which he realises and is trying to address, there is a Mother, but she works full time in the city and dosn't get home until after the children are in bed, my Son also works full time but he is local and his firm are very good and let him take the children to school (he has a younger Sister of 4) and he comes home at lunch time with them and finishes early to pick them up from school etc. He does most of the cooking, cleaning, taking care etc, and he does lose his temper and shout at them , mainly I think because he is under a lot of stress. There other Grandmother looks after them when he isn't there, but I'm afraid she is not a very good roll model, she literally sits and watches t.v all day, she dosn't stimulate the children in any way and has no control over them. They are quite rude to her I think but she dosn't reprimand them. I just think the green card method is just giving him a way out of doing something he might not want to do, ie if he dosn't like what he is doing in class, he can just hold up the green card and gets to leave the room, he dosn't have to articulate, or explain why he is feeling 'angry', he just holds up the card and goes. Its not working anyway. He is such a lovely boy usually, and mainly good as gold, its just this uncontrolled temper. I fully agree with you all on not stopping the football as I think it gives him an outlet but I have to be careful 'not to interfere'. I just love him so much and I don't want him to be labelled as a naughty child and made to look different, as he is at the moment. They keep saying to my son that he is the 'worst child in the school when he does this but mainly very good and they don't have any other children on the card system etc', he has lots of friends and seems to be well liked. I am also concerned that he may be having hearing problems as it is a family problem and also he was a pre eclampsia birth and was in an incubator and very very sick for some time after birth, he was mistakenly given an overdose of antibiotics at this time by the Hospital and they did tell my Son that it could cause possible hearing problems later on. He has had the normal development tests, which I assume include hearing, and nothing has come up, but I wonder if he should have a more in depth hearing test?
I am in Essex U.K. by the way.

I would recommend a referral to a paediatrician, given his birth. The chances are extremely high that he is fine, but the birth (and pre-eclampsia) is similar to my DS's and he has Aspergers Syndrome. He also has hearing difficulties though, and it is as likely that that causes his anger, if you see what I mean. Frustration. It's hard to separate causes when there are multiple problems.

It is better that he can remove himself from a situation even if he doesn't have toa rticulate why, if it means his anger is diminished and other children are protected. Personally, i think the green card is useful, as a starting point.

Hearing is no longer part of routine testing so if your family have concerns then they would need to ask for a referral through the GP or HV.

The Green Card sounds like a good starting point to me too, just seems as though the follow up is a little lacking (?)

Labelling him (as school have done) is appalling and entirely unhelpful.

I straight away wanted to ask you how he reacted to 'failures' and you have now mentioned this in your follow up post. I think, in behaviour management terms this is very significant. If I were ivolved preofessionally with a family describing a similar situation to yours, i would be investigating this aspect of his behaviour very thoroughly.

My field is not general child health or special needs assessment so I cannot comment on the posts of those with experience of this. However, there are some very interesting similarities mentioned and agin, your GP or HV should be able to help with this.

Will check back to see how it is all going.

Best wishes.

i dont know whether this will help or not but ill explain how it is with my ds..he has VERY mild asd and has big problems with being first/not getting his writing/spelling perfect/not winning a game /not being first in a race even to the extent he will try and trip an adult up if theyre winning the race and he always does it to his sister..weve had referrals to a psyotherapist and am at present having psychotherapy with a lovely lady who is excellent at explaining why he behaves in this way..generally its because of his insecurity with the world,she s told us that if my son doesnt be first/the best hes lost because he doesnt know where he is otherwise..first is a safe place ..he has lots of meltdowns which we have found hard work but the therapy is helping and weve been asked to build his relationship up more with me his mother as a son normally bonds stronger with his mom at this age and will grow up with the relationship getting stronger so basically its fathers and daughters and moms and sons..but unless he feels wanted by his mom[you say she works long hours which can and does affect the situation] he needs to spend quality time with his mom..my ds relishes special time with me and is calmer after , weve been told that this is very important for him to feel secure in his way that way he doesnt feel he needs to control everything else in his world..there is also a need for house rules so he feels some structure to his life ..this has helped with my son suprisingly well..but i cant stress how much the relationship between mother and son is...its his basis for his future and how he deals with others..also when hes having his meltdowns its important to stroke/touch him /rock him even as he loses it so extremely that he cant cope with his emotions and needs to know its safe to feel this horrendous feelings but that someone is there for him and touch is extremely important in stopping the cortisol levels reach to high..my sons get so high he has nosebleeds and gets ibs .. obviously every child is different but there is a reason why hes having these explosions..he sounds very frustrated and unfortunately it may be his relationship with his mother needs to be worked on ..and please dont think im trashing what his mother does ..she works hard and is obviously the bread winner[yes?] that she feels she has to work the long hours in the job she does but what about her sons childhood and his feelings? can she spend some 1-1 time with him every week and do something special with him ? hope this helps and i hope i havent offended but this is what advice weve received and it seems to make sense to us and i feel very strongly about this subject and weve fought hard to get the help we need with our son

Wow! Great post bambi06. Even if not all of it is applicable to fultime's gs I am sure there are parts in there that could help many of us, particularly those of us who work a lot. Even if the mum son thing isn't one of the main reasons for the problems I still think the things you have written are very interesting and relevant to parents in general.

May I cut and paste/print this and stick it in my anecdotes file? Does anybody mind, i.e. fultime and bambi?

fabulous post bambi06. Your DS sounds very like my DSS and you have articulated it so much better than I did.

No I don't mind at all. All of your suggestions have been helpful, it is difficult for me as I'm sure you can understand as I don't want to offend my son but I am concerned about my grandson. His Mother is more of a 'career' woman and has never been very maternal, its not really a matter of being the bread winner, she has now taken to going to Football matches with my son if he goes on a Saturday and leaves the children with her Mother or Me, I don't think this is right as I think she should be spending as much time with the children of a weekend as she can especially with her son but of course I can't say that can I! Its so very frustrating for us as I can see what they are doing wrong and how it is hurting him. I have suggested the book to my Son in the hope that he will buy it as it may help. I also told him I didn't think stopping him playing his beloved football is the right thing to do, so I will just have to wait and see if he listens to my advice.
Thanks again for all the advice, which I will take on board and hopefully diplomatically suggest as best I can without causing a rift.
Best wishes to you all.

fultime just wanted to say that I know what you mean! It's so easy being on the outside looking in and being able to see what's going wrong isn't it. But I think I speak for more than just myself when I say it's not so easy to see when you are on the inside. I can see clearly what's gone and is continuing to go wrong in my brothers home....but as for my own kids? Well that's a different matter isn't it.

Just be there to help them if and when they need you. Good luck.