Help needed please for a sad 7yo (and his family)

[esteban]

We have 2 little ones, him 7, her 6. We have behaviour/emotional issues for him, not her. He has some kind of fear of food ? ?fussy? eater in the extreme, in that if he finds one ?bad? bit in food, he writes the whole thing off and refuses it, won?t try any new food (he looks at it for a while, then decides he can?t eat it), and when we do give him something he likes (usually something simple, like a bowl of mince), he?ll wolf it down one day and then eat 3 mouthfuls the next time before deciding he doesn?t like it now (even if it?s from the same packet!) ? and then accuses us of never giving him anything he likes. He understands when we say ?can you see how difficult it is for us to give you something you like, if you ate this 2 days ago and loved it, and it?s from the same packet and now you don?t like it? How can we know what you will like if we give you the exact same and you refuse it?? ? but that doesn?t mean he?ll then try it again. It?s now getting to the point that I don?t want to take the family out for dinner because he will suck the fun out of it all and me and mummy will get annoyed/cross at it (yes, I understand that it is this behaviour that is probably a big factor in it), and mealtimes are stressful because he won?t eat anything. Frankly, I?m at the point where I would happily just give him cereal for dinner because then we could all just sit down and have a nice happy meal together. I offered him a small slice of steak off my plate at the weekend, explained this was what they made mince out of ? literally, they take steak and mince it through a slicer ? he sat looking at it on my fork for 7 seconds then decided he didn?t like it. I explained that food was about flavour and texture, not look (and it was properly cooked to the same colour as his mince), but he still refused even though I?d just explained it was literally the exact same stuff.

Little lady is very well behaved. She will try new foods, she enjoys fruit & veg, and if one night we give her something she doesn?t like for dinner (like peas), she will eat it anyway and proclaim ?I don?t like peas, eurgh!, but I?m eating them anyway because that?s the right thing to do!?, and proceed to eat them without fuss or grimacing and drama etc. In the morning, when I get back after walking the dog, she will be sat downstairs eating the cereal she has gotten herself, with the cup of water she has gotten herself, she?ll have had her morning multivitamin tablet which she got herself, she will be in her full school uniform, teeth brushed, bed made, curtains opened, declaring that if I hurry up I can sit with her to eat my cereal. This morning he was at the top of the stairs, calling forlornly for mummy, and when I went up and asked him what he needed, he would just say ?I need to talk to mummy?, and when I said she?d give the same answer as I do since we work for a team and he shouldn?t go asking one parent over the other, in the end it came down to ?it?s not important? enough for him to tell me instead of mummy (who probably would have gotten cross with him because it would have been something trivial and it would stop everyone getting ready until whatever it was was sorted out/heard).

So, the other part of his behaviour which we need help with is the forlorn, sad, no-one listens to me, poor me behaviour. If we ask him to do a small job, e.g. tidy the playroom floor (which he knows consists of putting the cushions on the sofa, the blankets in a pile and any toys off the floor, and he knows it takes less than 2 minutes and he?s successfully done it many times), if we say it needs doing within the next 5 minutes then we go off to do another job, he?ll spend 12 minutes coming up with a reason as to why it was okay for him not to do it ? so we return after 12 minutes and say ?why isn?t the floor tidy??, he say ?no, it?s okay because??. He thinks if he can come up with a valid reason for not doing something, then that?s as good as doing the thing itself ? if he can explain his way out of it. Even when I?ve explained that it takes him more energy doing that than it does to do the actual job itself, and he?ll be done quicker and back to whatever he was doing, he still does it. I know he hasn?t gotten this behaviour from copying me or mummy ? mummy is always busy doing jobs, as am I. It?s not like he?s ever caught mummy shouting at me for lazing around watching TV and making excuses not to do things ? he knows full well I?m hard at work all day, and that at night and weekends I have chores to do, which I do without excuse even if it?s tricky (I had him helping me put some display boards up in the playroom at the weekend, so we can put up their artwork on the wall). And I don?t sit and watch TV, in fact he hardly sees me sitting still unless we?re having a family film cuddled up on the sofa at the weekend.

If we say ?if you tidy the floor , you can play on the Wii?, he gets all sad because he ?knows? he won?t manage it and get to play on the Wii (it?s a foregone conclusion for him), so he doesn?t even try to tidy the floor, resulting in him not getting to play on the Wii. Everything is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we phrase it in the negative instead to see if this will change things (?If you don?t tidy the floor, you won?t get to play on the Wii?), we get the same result. Even if it?s something trivial like ?can you please put all the cushions back on the sofa by the time I get back from walking the dog?, no joy.

We know he can do the ?good? behaviour. On Saturday morning, he woke me up at 6, fully dressed, teeth brushed, wanting me to help him finish his homework so that it would be done and out of the way. I gave him lots of praise for this and we finished his homework together, even doing a bit extra so I could show him that a little extra effort can get much better rewards such as extra praise from me and his teacher.

Here?s some recent quotes from him in his own words.
?I have lots in my head that I need to get out, that?s why I talk so much?
?I like sitting with the slower people in class because I need someone there to say ?Come on, you can do it!? when I?m trying to write a story?
?I bet you and mummy wish I was dead? (this was last week after mummy and sister had gone out to a friends and we said he could go after he finished his dinner ? which was something he likes anyway!)

He?s a smart boy. I mean, really smart. He got moved up to the top Maths class last month, and his teacher is frustrated because she knows how smart he is but he doesn?t apply himself. When other teachers come in to teach, they think he?s the slow one in the class because he keeps asking how to do something, and they end up doing it for him (because he knows he can get it done effectively this way). When he was moved to the top table in class, the teaching assistant was explaining to the bright kids exactly how to be writing great stories, all the things to include and some examples, and he sat writing down exactly what she said ? smart thing to do! I know he?s smart ? he has the same aptitude as me and I was top of the year throughout all school years. I had a conversation with him this weekend and discovered he?s been comparing himself to me and found himself falling short ? and I explained that I?m 30 and he?s 7, and I was the same smart as him when I was 7 (which surprised him), and I?m bound to be ?more smarter? than him now because I?ve done all of school, and that when he?s 30 he?ll be the same ?smart? as me, as long as he does his schoolwork.

He gets lots of attention when he?s doing the victim/forlorn behaviour. He accidentally banged his knee on his bed yesterday morning and this stopped him brushing his teeth and getting his clothes on because no-one came to make a fuss of him and check he was alright (he didn?t scream out or cry since it was only a small knock, we just heard an ?ow? and that was it). I know you?re supposed to ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good ? but how does this work practically? I ignore him if he?s not getting his school clothes on when he?s been told to? How does that work when 8:15 arrives and he?s still sat naked on his bed and his friends are waiting outside? Do I ignore when he shouts at his sister, or when I?ve asked him to do something simple to help me out and he doesn?t do so? Do I ignore the crumpled letters and homework that come out of his school bag, when he hasn?t taken enough care putting them in his bag (his homework exercise paper was ripped when it came out last night ? and we?ve asked him to be careful). Do I ignore it when he hasn?t taken his dinner plate to the kitchen like everyone else, and he knows he?s supposed to, or dropped his coat on the floor and left it there when he gets in? I don?t see, practically, how ignoring bad behaviour works if at the end of it you still need a result such as a tidy room.

He?s not a ?bad? boy ? he?s gentle, doesn?t get into fights, loves reading, has fun at home, sees his friends after school sometimes. With many things, he just doesn?t try (since for him it?s a foregone conclusion that he?ll fail, so why bother trying in the first place?), he won?t eat, and he often acts such the victim that you?d think he was personally responsible for the genocide of an entire kingdom and knew it (the ?poor me? face gets lots of attention since it?s usually put on when he?s supposed to be doing something ? but it?s getting to the point where he doesn?t do anything to praise for. I know that sounds harsh?but when I can?t even praise him for successfully getting his socks on for the entire time I?ve taken to go walk the dog in the park, because he hasn?t managed it, how do I do it? Everyone?s tired and worn of the behaviour, it?s just so draining for him and us ? and it still doesn?t change when I patiently explain to him what better behaviour would look like(?instead of moaning that no-one takes any time to listen to you whilst we?re all busy getting ready in the morning, get yourself ready quickly and we can all talk together with us all listening to you over breakfast together as a family?), and the rewards for doing so).

So, my questions:

1. I?ve seen enough Supernanny to know that his behaviour is pretty much my fault. If I cook him some food, how am I supposed to behave if he doesn?t eat it? I mean, I?m not going to go cook him something else (when he was 4 I once came home from work to find mummy in her exasperation and exhaustedness had made him 4 dinners, all of which he had successively refused), and we tried the ?you need to eat this, if you don?t then you have it for breakfast? like when I was little, and breakfast time came and he refused it, and he went until 6pm the next day with us only saying, calmly, ?we said this was your next meal, just eat it and you can have proper dinner and dessert? etc, and he showed no real distress or inclination to eat before we caved in and gave him some cereal ? 24 hours later!
2. How do I stop the forlorn/victim behaviour? Me and mummy both want to praise him lots, but we?re at the stage where he?s taken 10 minutes sitting on his bed, forlorn face on, waiting for someone to come in to ask why he hasn?t gotten his socks on yet.
3. How do I help him get over the vicious circle when he?s been asked to do something and will be rewarded for doing so, and he doesn?t try because he ?knows? he won?t get the reward (even though he would if he did it ? and has done so in the past)?
4. Should I be ignoring the bad behaviour and rewarding/praising the good (well, obviously praising for the good!)? How, practically, does ignoring his behaviour work if I need results at the end e.g. him dressed ready for school at the appointed time?

This post is so long because I wanted to paint a full picture and not leave anything out ? including where I?ve gone wrong in raising him ? since him being happy and balanced is more important than me looking a fool.

I am open to all help, advice and suggestions, and am completely prepared to change my behaviour to get better results for us all as a family.

Please help :)

It sounds like you are expecting a lot from your DS for a 7 year old (possibly because his sister is a very good, easy child). You say he is "gentle, doesn't get into fights, loves reading, has fun at home" - these are all really important things! Give him some credit for them. Most of the bad behaviour you mention (eg shouting at his sister, not helping much at home, bringing home crumpled homework, dropping his coat on the floor) is very, very common for a 7 year old - I would say more common than not. I don't mean you should give up on getting him to improve, but I do think you should lower your standards so you don't feel so disappointed in him. He definitely doesn't sound like a Supernanny case!

I think "ignoring" in this context means "not rewarding with attention". Bizarrely, some children seem to prefer any attention, even someone being cross with them, to no attention at all, so they play up to get attention. So ignoring means not reacting. Eg if you get home from walking the dog and the playroom still hasn't been tidied, I wouldn't shout at him or launch into a detailed conversation on why it is important for it to be done. Just calmly ask him again to do it. Don't get angry. If he does a forlorn face, hide your irritation. If he bangs his knee say "oh dear, poor DS, let's rub it better" and then move on. No need for threats or bribes (as it sounds like he doesn't respond well to these anyway). Just keep asking him until he does it. I'd highly recommend "How to talk so kids listen and listen so kids talk" for some tips on effective communication.

The food issue - I don't have fussy eaters so I can't really help here, but it sounds like another attention seeking method. Personally I'd let him eat as much or little as he wants, not offer any alternatives, not make a big deal of it. Have you looked at the fussy eaters thread for more tips?

It sounds as if his teacher is aware that he is bright but tends to be lazy, so hopefully you can leave her to tackle this in school.

The only bit of your post that sounds at all abnormal / worrying is the bit about him saying "I bet you and mummy wish I was dead". He must be very aware of how disappointed in him you feel

Stop comparing him to his sister. I can't say this often enough!!

In summary, I think you are overreacting. He doesn't sounds that bad!

You sound like a caring Dad by the way

Esteban that was very long, but the gist seems to me to be: "he gets lots of attention when he's doing the victim/forlorn behaviour".

I think you need to take the pressure off him and off yourself. Can whoever collects the children from school prepare a snack of chopped fruit, carrot, cucumber + hummus etc ? present it prettily, and offer it casually, they're bound the be hungry that time of day ? Then at suppertime keep things simple for a week or two, bread and cheese, omelettes, baked beans. No great effort has been made and wasted if ds doesn't eat much.

I get the impression academic success is important in your household, but maybe right now that's too much for your son to take. Sort out the food, get mealtimes to be happier and I'm sure the rest will follow. Good luck.

Gosh, I agree with the last poster, there seems to be a lot of pressure on both yourself and your son.

How about taking a month off on trying to get the food thing sorted out. Let him eat what he wants, even if it is just cereal. The human body is more resistant than you think. A few more weeks of fussy eating won't make any difference.

Try to avoid those stand offs and adversory situations.

Time to bring some joy back in to your house. Enjoy each other and take the pressure off. Lots of hugs, laughs and doing fun things together.

With my 6 year old, I still need to sit on his bed watching while he tidies his room or puts away clothes. At this age they still get "stuck".
I amuse myself strumming the guitar whilst I do so so I'm not frustrated.

Agree with everyone else that you need to take the pressure off.

Smart kids often have slightly "tilted" skills - their potential isn't all even and smooth but can be a bit jagged. So he may very well be completely unable to do some things. Sometimes what seems hard is the easy bit, what seems easy is the hard bit.

Re food, it sounds like a big issue for him. I agree with everyone else, take the pressure off. I think letting him eat more or less what he wants for a month is a terrific idea. You can't possibly figure out if this is behaviour or anxiety or a sensory issue whilst the pressure and the sense of disapproval are there.

good luck.

"I ignore him if he?s not getting his school clothes on when he?s been told to? How does that work when 8:15 arrives and he?s still sat naked on his bed and his friends are waiting outside?"

it doesn't does it? he needs supervising still. make it work so it isn't too stressful for you.

Re victim/forlorn. This isn't bad behaviour, it's asking for your attention. My oldest son was still doing this at 7. It's a problem in the playground (I had to break the news to him that no-one would ever follow him if he ran away from his friends to sulk). But at home it's still ok that they need to tell you "I hurt myself here" and get a kiss. My oldest son is now very very mature for his age. There was no way past the forlorn/sulky strategy except through it.

As for his sister, if I was him, I would be shouting at her too. I can almost feel his pain. Have you read "Siblings without rivalry"? A bit touchy-feely but lots of good stuff in it.

I think you need to sit down with your wife and agree with her what approach you will both take and then be consistent with it. The problem with having tried everything is that you show your lack of confidence by doing that and don't provide any consistency, which is deeply confusing and unsettling for everyone. Sometimes you appear to have attempted to understand your ds's behaviour, sometimes you have tolerated it for an easy life, sometimes you have positively reinforced it, sometimes you have come down hard but then not stuck it through. Whatever method you have chosen, you have lost confidence in it and moved on to something else.

Also, maybe, from his perspective, all your being busy doing chores and never having time to sit down and watch TV (or watch him doing his chores!) is why he thinks he doesn't ever get any attention? Because, actually, you are always rather busy? I know a logical adult would think: everyone is busy and if I help with all the work, we'll all be free sooner to do something fun together. But I don't know many 7-year olds who think like that - particularly not boys. In fact, frankly, there aren't many adults who think like that. Human beings aren't particularly rational! I know my children like me to pay attention to what they are doing - if I want them to do something, they want company while they are doing it, however irritating that is... Maybe you could, rather than going off to do one chore while your ds is doing another chore, accept until he is a bit older that, whilst less efficient, your ds might feel a bit abandoned and lonely to be left to clear up a room on his own, rather than having someone to chat to about all the thoughts in his head while he does it??? Could you get him involved in preparing the meals - in a fun way, so he doesn't feel it's some kind of punishment? So that he can see how they are made and talk about what is being done?

And finally, you do sound rather as though you are beating yourself up about it. You aren't a failure as a parent at all and your ds sounds like a lovely, adorable, typically exasperating little boy. You just need to stop advertising to him your lack of confidence in how to parent him, or he will start to think it is all his fault.

Agree entirely, Rabbitstew. Sometimes we parents try too hard, forgetting the huge gulf in age and experience between us and our dc.

All 3 of mine swing between the two extremes of the OP's dc's behaviour. It can, indeed, be very frustrating! And dh and I are often bewildered and frustrated by it.

Being consistent, and rewarding appropriately, are harder than you realise, when you're searching for a solution.

Have you considered that may have nothing to do with parenting styles, and your son may have an issue such as Asperger's? The kind of food/eating problems he has developed is quite typical, and some of his other behaviours ring a bell with me too. My DS3 (has Asperger's dx), academically very bright, incapable of following instructions to get dressed/tidy at that age (still not great at chores at age 14!), had lots of odd food behaviour (certain things not allowed to touch other food on the plate, or needed to be on a different plate, frequent changes of food likes and hates, rejection of entire meal if a "bad bit" found). The food behaviour has improved a lot since he was about 10 years old, pretty normal now.

If your DS does have Asperger's or some other underlying reason for his behaviour, then it's useful to know as there are lots of strategies that will help him cope and improve his behaviour with food and also with school issues - helping keep on task for example, to make sure he doesn't fall behind his potential (my DS needed someone with him in school to keep him focused on work tasks until very recently - that's not laziness, it was because he COULDN'T do it without constant reminders, it sounds like your son is telling you that he is the same, can't focus on his own, so he probably does need some school strategies).

He sounds exactly like my son who was diagnosed recently with dyspraxia and sensory processing disorder. Google the disorders and if you 'see' your son in the descriptions, then get him down to the gp who can get him to an OT for assessment.

sensory processing disorder/dyspraxia are certainly a possibility.

fussy eating omg i had years of that with my ds from the age of 3 years he is now almost 20 and still fussy and will sometime still only eat dry cereal, but is 6ft 2in 15stone landscaper/part time firefighter so i wouldnt worry, we also had with him the cant do dont want to do he never wished himself dead but wished he was an only child, he got lots of attention at school and home. we basically left him to it to be honest, if he did not like the food then tough he went without, if he couldnt be bothered to help tidy his room then every thing he left laying around got taken out of his room, if he didnt want to do his homework then it got left undone and let him pay the consequences at school, believe me he hated it he threw tantrums which were totally ignored, all bad temper was ignored not a word was said to him, it took a while be he slowly realised, that basically he would no longer get his own way by being naughty, our other ds 2 years younger was the good boy, ate anything kept his room tidy always did his homework, he is now 17 6ft 2 and a real lazy bugger who sits around playing computer games...our dd aged 5 is a between the 2 of them bit of a fussy eater, will tidy up a bit, behaviour during the day is fantastic but she turns into the she devil at bed time....

After ruling out dispraxia or Asperger's, try two books, both of which have been recommended by other posters (and loads of others on MN):

1. Siblings without rivalry
2. How to talk so kids listen and listen so kids talk

You also appear to be living with ds1.

I think understanding that there are an awful lot of children like your ds around might ease your concern that it is about your parenting?

Fwiw, ds1 doesn't quite meet the diagnostic criteria for aspergers, but has a dx of ADHD, some sensory and social issues, and some anxieties and phobias which he is seeing a psych for, and a confirmation that he fits the gifted criteria. The food thing drives you crazy, I know. ds1's diet is gradually reducing because of the continual one bad experience thing...

I do agree that taking the pressure off and remembering he's only 7 will go a long way to tempering your expectations. (I used to tell myself that and ds1 is ten now lol).

I would love to tell you about a magic cure, but we haven't found one. I'm reading everyone else's posts though...

(that said, the psych has come up with lots of ideas including token economy to earn screen time, as well as ideas to stay on task - we have time timers everywhere so that he can earn poker chips, and we are also trialling ADHD meds - vyvanse. Essentially she thinks he has so much going on in his head that this is the main issue for his keeping on task or being able to articulate... So the attention deficit unable to actually complete anything - or in some cases even start it, bit. He has certainly been a lot more verbal and sometimes even noticeably compliant since starting! He's never had behaviour issues, just has been completely unable to concentrate long enough to get anything done.)

Rabbit stew has some v sensible things to say.