Violent 4yo - what do you do about it?

[HipHopOpotomus]

DD1 is 4y3m - she is a sweet, lovely, bright, highly intelligent, engaging individual 99% of the time. The other 1% of the time is causing me huge problems as she is being violent towards me & it's escalating.

It started with a few punches in anger - lashing out. Last night she kicked me in the back/kidney as I was putting DD2 to be - it was premeditated, in the quiet of the night. I was hugely shocked. We had done books, had a cuddle and had a really lovely bedtime - DD2 was taking time to settle and needed my attention, DD1 wanted more cuddles, I explained we had lots of cuddles and now I needed to get baby to sleep. Few minutes silence then kick!

I've talked with her about it, taken things away/off her, offered rewards for good behaviour. All of this I feel slightly uncomfortable with ("if you do X I will do Y" manipulations are not something I really like doing) but I do it - I don't know what else to do.

We've talked with her of course. I sit her down until she has calmed herself down. I tell her how sad it makes me and how unacceptable it is to hurt other people. I ask her if she would like it if someone kicked/punched/hit her - "no of course not Mummy". I've explained it's fine to be angry but not to be violent. She is quite upset about the whole thing.

I know why she does it - usually she is angry because I've said No to something she wants, plus she is a little jealous of the time and attention I give DD2 (9 months). She gets angry and lashes out. She is an excellent sister to the baby - very loving and sweet. She saves her anger for me. DD1 gets lots of attention from me and DP, and I ensure every weekend we do something nice together just the 2 of us.

She is not like this at nursery or with CM - and she is clearly aware and ashamed of her actions as she has begged us not to tell nursery/CM what she has done.

She has punched DP once - mainly it is directed towards me.

After last nights debacle I have decided to work to rule as far as she is concerned, and let her know why I am doing this. And I took back something I brought for her yesterday - she thinks it has been returned but I've got it here at work (we will need it in a couple of weeks when we go on holiday).

But really I need some practical advice as to how others have handled similar situations. I feel so sad about this and it's starting to really make me feel quite hopeless and depressed (I'm usually a 'water off ducks back' kind of gal).

When she hits you, turn around and say "hitting is not acceptable" in a firm and direct voice. then remove yourself from her vicinity.
Do not give her any attention.

She wanted your attention last night and by kicking you she got a big conversation and lots of attention.

I can do that! (gosh it seems so blindingly obvious when you put it like that Valar)

When I remove myself, what if she follows me etc. We live in a small flat.

So I walk away and just leave her to it? If its at bedtime (it often is) when do I return and put her to bed? When she is calm? When she's apologised?

Just firmly and calmly say-NO, tuck her up in bed kiss on head, firm night night.

Repeat- as needed ignore wails.

Next morning say nothing don't discuss or mention it. Totally ignore it when she does it other than to say NO & move away from her. When she's being good & nice pay attention to her.

ooh and don't MAKE her apologise, if she says sorry voluntarily then that's OK but otherwise they're just saying the word to appease you.

If she says it ask her if she means it and how she's going to SHOW she's sorry because you don't feel she is, as it keeps happening.

just as Bossy says, Put her back into bed. no conversation no talking and limited eye contact. Just put her into bed.

thanks Bossy
This is the total opposite of what we have been doing but makes sense. And it seems like a much easier way too - double bonus!

So what about the toys etc we have taken off her. Do they get returned now or when an improvement in behaviour has been seen over a week or so?

If you have removed them then don't just give them back. Whatever approach you have you need to be consistent.

let her "earn" them back by helping and good behaviour. Lots of praise over the slightest things.

No real advice, but watching with interest... you have described my dd1, same age, to a T.

I've literally just been emailing DH about her thumping me this morning (docked her pocket money 10p and sent her to her room, we'll see if it sunk in), then saw this thread. Have done all the things you mention - explaining she's old enough not to kick/hit even if she feels like it etc - but she seems to be getting worse (not bad in the grand scheme of things, but want to nip this in the bud).

It is definitely an attention/not getting my own way thing, especially when I'm busy with DD2. So I guess stand firm, enforce punishments, and don't give attention for it (this last bit I think I need to work on, as she gets a big chat about why its not OK).

She says 'I am bad mummy, wish I was good like DD2' when I tell her off. Breaks my heart . (yes I tell her its her behaviour that is not acceptable, not her etc)

Lukewarm - she doesn't need a conversation. She KNOWS its not ok. She is doing it as that is the quickest way of distracting you from what you are doing and getting her own way.

the firm NO! followed by total blank of attention until she is doing something positive so that you can praise the good behaviour is, i promise the best way

waves to Lukewarm - we are NOT ALONE!

Can you predict these outbursts or preempt them in some way? I know this was a kick out of the blue.

Perhaps if you could say 'I have to help dd2 now, but I promise you can have extra special cuddles/an extra story in the morning after you've have a good nights' sleep'.

Something like that? Ds1 used to go in a huge huff about me spending precious time with ds2, but he got used to it and I would bribe him with extra stories the next day if he was good.

I'd also get little treats so I could say 'Wow, you've been such a helpful/kind brother, ds2 chose this book/choccy for you' whenever I thought he was being super nice.

No I'm sure we aren't alone! And like your DD, my DD1 is 99% sweet, caring, bright and funny. Its just that this is a) 100% unacceptable and b) seems to be getting a bit worse.

When she was smaller (and still, with DD2), I did the 'NO' thing, then sit on the step. I don't know why I've stopped it - daftly thinking that I can reason with her like an adult I suppose, as she seems so grown up. emoticon.

Right back to treating her like a toddler it is then.

I do say things like that WowOoo but it's not worked in preventing the aggression. DD1 is super sweet to DD2 and we are always praising her for it and letting her know just how lovely her treatment of DD2 is.

I really dislike using bribery (have used it for potty training etc) and try to avoid it. Realise we have been doing it of sorts by taking toys etc away - but it feels like failure when we are doing it and probably is - it's certainly not working!

I agree with the others who say it's about getting attention NOW! It is so strange I've not clicked to this before. Sometimes its really hard to see things clearly, when you are deep in the middle of things, isn't it?

WowOoo - I don't know about the OP, but I can totally predict them. Its whenever she doesn't get her own way, or isn't getting the attention she wants (eg at DD2 bedtime), and thinks she can get away with it.

I'm not totally sure that bribing would work with my DD1 and she gets bribed enough anyway, she knows exactly what she wants and isn't easily distracted by a promise of something else (plus she needs to learn she can't always have her own way, that's just tough life!).

HipHop - X posts! Yes, I totally agree. Seems so obvious really!

Just to add, my two are 11 and 7 and i still use this.
they throw a bit of a tantrum and they get told "i am not talking to you why you behave like that" i turn my back and busy myself with something else.

Anything else just feeds the behaviour.

PS sorry for the hijack

lukewarm re it getting worse, if it is an attention seeking thing, and I suspect it is, then it will get worse won't it? Because it's working for them!

So what is the best way to communicate to a 4yo that something is 100% unacceptable? I'm starting to feel that the old adage "ignore, ignore, ignore" still applies. I have been momentarily blinded by her vast vocabulary and 'intelligent' conversation into thinking I can reason with DD1 and discuss things through with her. Big mistake!

Back to toddler treatment indeed!!!!

Not hijack - more co-pilots :)

Oh blimey, triple . Of course its getting worse because its working. I think I'm going to go and boil my brain now, its clearly come to the end of its useful life

My DS is exactly the same age and has also started doing this over the past few weeks.

I think you've had some good advice about ignoring - I too tend to spend loads of time talking about it with him and can see now that that's probably a mistake - so I'll be trying ignoring him from now on.

Btw, my DS has no siblings so it's not necessarily related to jealousy of a younger sib.

I don't like bribing much either, even though I suggested it! But I do it sometimes.
I'd rather do distraction.

Could you sometimes give attention rather than ignoring (Only when it's appropriate or as a pre empter)?
I got ds to help me sing quiet lullabies to ds2 once. He soon got bored and said he wanted to go to bed and could we just all be quiet now.

Thanks everyone for your advice - I feel so much better at this end of the day than I did at the beginning. Oh I love MN!!

I feel prepared for any outburst - but going from past behaviour she will be an angel for a day or 2 now. But I am prepared to ignore ignore ignore as is DP!

Hmmm, well that didn't go so well. DH home late, so I was doing bedtime single handed. DD1 getting cross that I'd helped her move her milk, told me to put it back. I said no, as was sitting with DD2 on my lap. She kicked the milk over, so I said no, and sent her out of the room for a bit (about a minute).

Called her back in so we could listen to the nighttime tunes together. DD2 was singing along to twinkle twinkle, DD1 didn't want her to as she wanted to sing, was trying to get DD2 to be quiet. DD2 wouldn't (and why should she), so DD1 hit DD2 in the face!

Straight to her room to bed, plus another 10p docked from her pocket money come saturday. Waily waily. I put DD2 to bed as usual, then went in to DD1 (had to give her her asthma medication and give her the opportunity to go to the loo). No stories or anything, just the meds and loo trip. Quick hug and kiss and night night. Boo . That wasn't the nice bedtime we usually have. Doesn't help that we all have a cold, but even so.

Was there any bit of that I could have handled better? Did DD1 hit out at DD2 because her usual tantrums (kicking milk etc) weren't getting the usual attention? Will it get better???!!! Argh.

Hope you've had a better night HipHop.

Ah that's not nice but it sounded as though you handled it quite well and nipped it in the bud. Worry she hit little one though. Hope she's ok.

All good here tonight as I suspected it would be. She was asking after trunkie I brought yesterday. I've told her its been returned - it's at work

I actually find bedtime easier on my own - Its simpler!

Here's to a smooth morning.