A very defiant 4yo... how would you cope? (with examples)

[confusedperson]

My DS is 4yo and is very, very defiant, argumentative and uncooperative. He always argues (just for arguing sake, not that he means what he says), runs away or changes subject in the middle of conversation, talks nonsense and lies. If I take something away as a punishment (a toy, a film etc), he wouldn?t accept that but rather try to climb and take the taken away. I am running out of means how to make him understand the consequence. I am still hoping that he does not have ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder), mainly because we do have some good days and although he is not an angel in nursery, the nursery has not raised a concern (yet).

How do I react to this?

In the park:
DS: who?s are these footprints?
Me: looks like a dog?s
DS: no, it?s not! (he is only telling this to argue with me, not that he knows who?s footprints it is)
Me: Don?t ask me then if you know better?

This morning:
DS closed the stairgate in front of me, just as I was coming from upstairs with DS2.
Our nanny: DS, open the stairgate for mummy
DS: No! (smiles with a silly smile which I hate)
Our nanny: DS, mummy will be late to work.
DS: No! (continues to smile with his silly smile and makes sure the gate is closed)
Me: 1? 2?
DS opens the gate and runs away

This morning:
Daddy: Morning DS, how was your night?
DS: Not so good
Daddy: why?
DS: I got a medal yesterday (he diverts from answering a question many, many times?)
Daddy: I am asking why your night wasn?t good?
DS runs away.

Yesterday:
Our nanny: good morning (she just came in)
Me: good morning. DS, say ?good morning?
DS doesn?t say it deliberately
Me: why don?t you say ?good morning? to nanny?
DS: good evening (runs through and pushes nanny with no reason)

Yesterday:
A toy broke and a dangerous spiral wire came out. I am taking this to the bin.
DS: I want it, I want it!
Me: too dangerous, you and DS2 might get hurt.
DS: I want it, I want it, I want it (grabs my hand in which I have the wire and tries to take it).
Me: you are not playing with this, it is too dangerous (and putting it on high wardrobe, as if I put in the bin, he will take straight away).
DS gets annoyed and while screaming ?I want it?? punches me and runs away.

It's not about being "on," it's just switching into random nonsense mode . With practise you can do it without even noticing and think about your own stuff simultaneously.

Just a good way to stop all the stress and unhappiness.

Like what Hullygully said. That's the kind of thing I meant when I talked about being playful.

And I don't think you can expect a four year old to be focused on a conversation, and it's daft to treat it like it's 'defiance' when they aren't. They get distracted so easily, it's not wilful.

Thank you for all replies. I feel like I lack imagination and it is hard for me to be playful. I admit, I need to learn it. On the other side, DS has always been a difficult child (DS2 is nothing to compare from the very beginning!) and he is very wearing, and it seems like all family life depends on his mood swings. His nursery mentioned that we should apply ?zero tolerance? but it does not match with the IGNORE approach?

The broken dangerous toy was taken from DS2 hands (it was too dangerous) and DS1 followed me to the bin while trying to grab it from me.

OP I can sympathise with you. My DS's 4th birthday coincided almost exactly with the birth of DS2 and over night he became really challenging. It has been a real shock as he was a total angel before. Yesterday we had some of his friends over and he did a wee on the carpet to show off. I agree that the distraction method and only telling him off for the big things is a good approach but for us sometimes it isn't possible as his main target is his baby brother (he relentlessly licks him, pokes him, wakes him up etc) so we do have to pull him up on it. It gets worse when I'm busy with the baby and can't give him the total attention he wants like playing hide and seek when I'm breastfeeding.

I can't really advise as we're going through similar, but at least you know you're not alone.

This is why How to Talk book is so good because it models parent responses, so if you're not good at thinking things up yourself it will help. I stuck post it note reminders all over the house after I'd read it.
I'm not a fan of the zero tolerance view. Our paediatrician explained to us that attention from an adult allows behaviour to become embedded in a child's way of doing things. So by praising we reinforce good behaviour but so too do we reinforce poor behaviour by making a big deal about it. We try to follow his advice with ds which is ignore absolutely all poor behaviour unless it is dangerous in which case remove the danger with as little fuss as possible. In the meantime make a point of positively reinforcing all good behaviour.

Seems normal to me and actually reasonably pleasant. I'd give you a week with my DD and you would lose your mind.

They divert, speak gibberish and make things up at this stage. Its just the age

Maybe when you discuss the footsteps thing you could say 'Maybe its a hedgehog, maybe its a dinosaur' etc etc. Children love the ridiculous and I find that it can really lighten the mood

Sorry if I sounded dismissive, it sounds like it's worse than with my DD. I think I would still maintain the same approach, though, and hope that one day it works.

Had similar with my step-daughter around the same age, exacerbated by the arrival of her half-sib, my DD. It did get to the point with her where we were all affected by her mood-swings and she simply couldn't be jollied out of them, she was angry and resentful a lot of the time, and made us all miserable. A lot. We did a lot of reasoning with her, but ultimately, I think we just had to wait until she felt more secure (obviously doing as much as possible to contribute to her sense of security by not withdrawing/ignoring and trying to make sure she felt as though she was being listened to/had a say in things). I realise this is not the same situation, however.

She got much better in the end, though it took a while. Sorry not to be more helpful.

I found four the most difficult age for both of my (now teenage) boys. In fact DS1 was in danger of being a real brat.
A good friend very tactfully pointed this out to me along with some well tried advice. We had operated a policy of avoiding confrontation and discipline. She said that it is hard to start with a four year old, at 7 or 9 it's even harder and by teenage years it's almost impossible.
We changed overnight and tackled every bit of difficult behaviour. With consequences. There was a dramatic improvement in family life, I still thank my friend for being brave enough to tell me. There was no MN in those days .

Sounds a lot like my 4 year old. When he's lovely, he's absolutely lovely, charming, good fun etc but when he's in a defiant mood, he's VERY hard work. He does try to start arguments for the sake of it (your dog footprint example sounded very familar!) I deal with it by either turning it into a silly game, as others have suggested. If he's in the right mood, he'll go along with it and be jollied out of arguing. If he's not in the right mood and tries to argue some more I'll just disengage - "Oh, isn't it a dog footprint? Never mind, then." It takes two people to have an argument.

It is hard to be "on" all the time. I had a tough morning getting ready for work/nursery today as DS was in a foul mood and it felt like I had to jolly him along to get anything done, which is not easy first thing in the morning. But the alternative is me getting shouty and him getting more stroppy/teary and then we don't get anywhere.

Empathy works wonders too. We were on holiday and went to play mini-golf and it was shut so we couldn't. DS started to whinge about it so I said "oh, I am so disappointed that we can't play golf. I was really looking forward to it, it was going to be fun and now we can't and I feel a bit sad about that. The park might be fun as well though, shall we try that today and play golf another time?" And DS was happy to go to the park. If I'd have said "we can't play golf, it's shut. Stop whinging", he'd have just carried on and probably got worse.

Good luck!

Example one: when your DS asks "who's are these footprints?" maybe try answering with "who do you think they belong to?" rather than giving him a difinitive answer he can argue against?

Example three: I think is typical 4yo behaviour. Possibly "did you have a nice sleep?" is maybe easier for DS to answer. It is possible that he didnt have a good night sleep as he was awake thinking about his medal?

Example two and the instance he says good evening instead of good morning are, imo, typical and him being mischevious. Pushing the nanny is not on though. Was he spoken to about this / made to apologise to nanny?

Again, the instance with the broken toy is him being typically 4 years old. Punching you is not, and again, is not on. Was he spoken to about the punching / punished for it?

Try to stop seeing everything he does/says as confrontational.

Again, thanks for all responses. Very, very helpful! I feel guilty that I let it stuck in a bad cycle of reinforcing bad behaviour and forgetting to use the ?praise and reward? approach. I have yet to stick post-it notes all over my house to be constantly reminded.

We had a lovely evening yesterday with DS and lovely morning without much fussing around. He tried to close the stairgate in front of me again, but I manage not to confront him and it ended just fine!

I find I can be very imaginative and playful, however when feeling stressed or tired I can forget. When this combined with DD-4 being stressed & tired too it can end in a dreadful situation. Got to remember the golden rules - imagination, playfulness, diversion, distraction - and SMILE!

NEVER go head to head with a 3/4 year old - it will only end in tears.

Confused I wouldnt be feeling guilty, I dont think there are many parents who dont come to the end of their tethers with children that age. I sometimes could run away from my DD

I sympathise confusedperson, some days you can do the 'talk so they'll listen' thing, other days you just can't and it escalates and you feel like you have to exert authority or they'll have no consistency/grow up spoiled and awful so you just keep going and they keep going and it gets worse and worse. Or is that just me? But yeh I think I have too-high expectations of 3 yr old dd as well.

SecretSquirrels Can I ask what your friend said/or did? I have a friends who's ds (as much as I love her to bits) is in danger of becoming a little horror, simply because if he knows if he screams/whines long enough she will give in.

Oops posted to soon.

There are also no consequences/discipline either. He hits her and she says ineffectually Dont do that, but of course he just ignores as he knows nothing will happen.

I think you need to pick out which behaviour is unacceptable, and what you just find a bit irritating.

Silliness (like with the footprints, saying evening instead of morning) and trying to initiate games (that's how the stairgate incident came across to me) is just what children do. I would either engage in the game or ignore.

Hitting and pushing is unacceptable and that is what I would zero-tolerance.

Trying to take the broken toy from you - you have the advantage of being bigger and stronger than a 4 year old. Why not just put the toy in the outside bin? Close the door (lock it if you have to) - surely he can't let himself out?

Four year olds are so funny and delightful and sweet...when they are not being screaming nightmares. It's a tough age. I started a thread about it when I was about to lose it with DS.

I do try to be as fun and silly as possible, but there are also times when I want him to do as I say. And I feel like everyone needs to learn that their choices have consequences. I think a lot of grownups my brother don't understand that! :)

With DS we focused on one behavior- his defiance. I felt like we were constantly arguing; even when I would refuse to engage or would be silly or try to distract he would come back to it, and back to it, and back to it. If I asked him to do something and he didn't, and I ignored him, he would say "Look, I'm not doing X! Look!" Stubborn boy, don't know where he gets it from.

What I did was make three tickets. A green, a yellow, and a red, like a stoplight. When I ask him to do something (and I know he understands), if he doesn't do it I count to three and then remove a ticket. If he loses all of his tickets he goes to his room for the rest of the day. No arguing. I don't shout, I don't get angry, I just calmly explain that he knows the rules and he has chosen this.

It may sound a bit harsh, but he has toys and books up there, so it's really not terrible. It's happened once. Now he hops to when I start counting, he rarely loses a ticket at all anymore.

Also, praise, praise, praise, and have as much fun as you can...they really are at a delightful age if you can get past the irritations. :)

It does sound like fairly typical 4 yr old behaviour to me. Are you wondering if his behaviour is ODD so you can have a reason for it rather than actually he is just going through a difficult stage? He will almost certainly grow out of this stage.

I think your son has learnt how to get a reaction out of you and now pushes your buttons to get a reaction.

My suggestion would be to seriously ignore nearly ALL negative behaviour unless dangerous or likely to inflict harm but REALLY accentuate any positive behaviour- even the slightest thing. When my son (who is 5) was going through a really whiney bloody annoying stage I found I was always in a battle of wills with him. When I ignored the bad stuff and concentrated on praising the good stuff the difference was really noticeable.
I haven't found it easy to play with my DS- I found it easier with my girls (they are 18 and 15 so require less play now!) because I could relate to their play but I am learning to play knights and fort etc- kids just want your time and aren't scoring you on how well you play- they just want you there with them engaged in their activity.
Set boundaries and consequences and be consistent with them every time and your son will learn that you are in charge and you mean business and he will settle down.

well you´ve had great advice but just wanted to add my voice to those saying you are NOT ALONE! Ds is 4.10 and is just like this. It is definitely easier when I turn on my inner children´s tv presenter and make light/silly of it but its not always possible, we are also human and have bad days/are tired/fed up etc.

I started reading Playful parenting, i´m not great with those kind of books so my attention did wander BUT a few things did stick and when i remember to put them into practice they always work. All based around this kind of idea - if they are resistant to something just make a game of it, they are 4, they CANNOT resist a game or silliness. Almost impossible.

I also try to remember the mantra "when a child is least lovable is when they most need your love" (probably badly paraphrased)

I am coming back to my old thread to say the biggest thank you for all the advice. I am applying the approach of ignoring neg behaviour and avoiding confrontation, and my DS is so much, much better! I am amazed by the change in what I thought he had some behaviour disorder, and I think he is so smart, sweet and lovely normal child. So happy that I posted here and got all the right advice!

yay!

What great news and what a great mum you must be to try all the stuff we suggested so quickly

Hello
I am seeking opinions on what is acceptable behaviour from our four year old boy. When is it just 'spirited and limit testing' or a sign of more serious behaviour issues such as oppositional defiance disorder? Our son makes everyday a struggle. A struggle to get up, a struggle to have breakfast, a struggle to get dressed etc..I know a lot of these are part in the parcel of being a four year old, and if were these sorts of things alone I wouldn't be so worried, but it is the intensity in which he displays a range of behavioural traits that I am very worried about.

My husband- inhumanly patient- thinks it's normal, but as a mother I feel something has always been extra difficult, just not quite right. Unfortunately because he has always been very challenging, we seem to be trapped in a constant negative cycle of defiance - consequences and punishment. Over the years we have become so immune to the way things have become it seems like we are living in a prison camp with constant reprimanding, constant breaking rules, constant consequences etc..but it is obviously not working! He KNOWS the rules but either cannot or won't listen to them. The usual strategies I see other parents use just have little or no effect with him.

To list some of his troubling behaviour:

• defiance most of the time. Not able to listen and follow a request from most people. As his mother I feel like I have very little control over him.
• difficulty in socialising with his peers. In any given situation- school, plsydate, outing with family friends, holiday, he will disrupt the social harmony. It is heartbreaking to watch, to always see that it is him causing the problem. For example there might be kids playing with something, he will come over and either dominate, disturb the peace etc. If he is reprimanded he will try to make amends, but in a way that seems to alienate himself even further. He doesn't seem to able to read the situation. On a good day or when he's trying really hard, he will want to scoaljalsie with the kids, he will say something like 'would you like to play ball with me?' And sometimes for a short period might be ok but most often than not the other child will not want to play with him and will seek out the parent or some sort of conflict will arise.
• he can be aggressive towards other children very easy to push and shove etc.. even if they are younger than him, doesn't seem to register. Again i know this happens, but it just seems to happen a lot with him
• agressive towards caretaker ( mother, nanny or whoever in charge) if he is asked to do something he doesn't want to do. Can escalate very quickly. Hits, kicks, bites etc..again am i being unreasonable to expect. A 4,1/2 year old not to bite anymore?
• seeks company of older people. Doesn't seem to have developed any friends at school (although only started in September) but calls his teachers his friends. ( was the same at nursery)
• cannot cope with transitions or change in routine. E.gs: at school gates at pick up if I don't swoop in for a swift removal and linger for even a few seconds he might rip of his coat, start running around manically, might even jump into the street, will annoy other children by poking them, pulling at them while walking passed. Have noticed him even giving slight kicks to other parents who are waiting for their children. I have a five month old baby with me and cannot run after him if he runs around like a maniac in central London. It is to the point that I am too scared to take him anywhere if I have the baby with me (even if she's in a sling, he is so fast it scares me that I can't control what's going on) Another example at the school Xmas concert, he found it very difficult to stay in his place and perform the three or four songs. There were two teachers positioned around him to keep him in line from either annoying the other children (tapping shoulders, poking and even kicking them) or wanting to run out to me. Afterwards there was a classroom breakfast with all the parents, and again it sent him

Into 'naughtiness', running around, pulling and pushing his classmates, even stomped on one of this classmates' father as he picked her up to remove her from his proddings. It seems he just can't cope with any social situation, but then again our home life is no better. I feel like I am on egg shells attempting to do 'normal' things but everything turns out to be a struggle. He is full of energy and very active so we do a lot of exercise, but again swimming classes and football classes are a struggle because he simply won't listen or follow the rules. It is very alienating because people don't understand from the outside that he is not just a 'naughty boy' and that we have tried everything to engage him in positive ways. My patience is at wits end as there does not seem to be any normality left. He started school in September and have already been called in to discuss his behaviour a few times. I am worried they will ask him to leave. Our GP has referred him to CAHMS for assessment. We are in North London and am wondering if anyone has any similar experiences of either or both these sorts of behavioural issues and or CAHMS?

He's had a lot of change in his life ( moving countries, houses, a dad who travels and is away a lot for work) but I just cannot understand how this or our parenting could have resulted in such extreme behaviour.

To add on a good day he can be so sweet and funny but it seems the ratio towards the negative is 80/20...this can't be right..

Apologies for such a long post, desperate for some advise.