Learning to count

[bedubabe]

DS is 2.4. I'm just curious about how children learn to actually count objects and am wondering whether the issues he's having are 'normal'. Obviously doesn't really matter as he's young yet but my googling on child development has failed me for once.

Basically he can recite numbers up to 16 (guess which floor we live on!). However, when trying to count objects he tends to forget which ones he's already counted and will double count eg count four frogs when there are only three by going back to the one he counted as 'two' at the end.

Is this just completely par for the course or is it unsual?

Totally normal, based on my 2.7 year old. He can count the 13 stairs up to his bedroom, but hand him some objects and he will either count as you say, or maybe count correctly, or maybe just skip some numbers!

Completely normal. Another common error is that they don't match the numbers they say to the objects they point to, so they count and point at different speeds iyswim. Both of these things are quite common even up to age 5.

Children don't see quantities as we do until older.

Humans are naturally inclined to view amounts in a more logarithimic fashion. So anything above "3" becomes a few, then loads etc etc. Something about quickly measuring predators/food etc. Counting in a linear fashion (ie 1,2,3 to 10) is not how our brains naturally work. That's why children can take a while to get it. It's interesting - can you tell I'm a maths geek.

Yes, 3-4 is when object to number matching starts to kick in, v. generally speaking

Normal, but if he's counting actual objects you could ask him to touch (or even better, to move) each object as he counts it.

It's called 'one to one correspondence' and physically manipulating each 'one' should help cement this concept, but honestly if he doesn't get it yet don't worry because he is only little!

Maths is quite an abstract concept. I've seen year 1 and reception children count by rote but not be able to count objects. They will touch an object, say 'one' then continue 'two' touch the next object and say 'three' and tell you there are three of something!
My DS is 2.8 and he can count by rote to 15 (sometimes misses out 4) but only reliably count two objects, sometimes three. That's it.

Thanks all. That's really interesting about the concept of 'a few' and 'lots' etc. It makes sense now why he's been able to count two objects since he was about 18 months (or younger, can't remember) but he's now stuck going up one more!

Yes, there are about 5 different stages in learning to count, of which one-to-one correspondence is one of the later ones. It can be practised by other means eg activities like laying the table 'a fork for me, a fork for Daddy' etc.

Most children don't learn all five stages until they're about reception age.

Learning that the number of the last number you count is the total number of the group is another stage, as is knowing that that number stays the same (assuming no objects are added or removed). So if a child counts five objects and you ask them how many there are very shortly afterwards, the child will usually count them all again until they learn this.

Understanding numerals is also complicated - there's the idea of hundreds, tens and units to grasp, as well as the oddities of English. My 2.1 y.o. is very into numbers and can accurately recite to well over a hundred, but he'll also sometimes recite something like 'twenty eight, twenty nine, twenty ten' which is completely logical. (Despite knowing so many number names, he can only reliably count up to 3 though.)

And then there's zero - why it makes a difference to the number if it's in the middle / end (eg 602 or 620) but not at the beginning (062). And it's used in so many different ways - whether as zero / nought / none / no / 'oh'. It's no wonder it takes children a while to get the hang of it.

Since being given a number jigsaw with 0 on
Ds (2.2) has been getting very confused and it's quite a hard concept to explain!

He can count to 30 and count to about 6 items accurately when he wants to! With things like that though I very much work on the "it will click when it clicks" attitude. We count a lot together simply because he loves counting!

There was an interesting Montessori idea for teaching zero here but I think it's better suited to slightly older children.

We include it when counting down and DS knows that you say it as 'oh' when it's on a bus number.

Children can understand some complicated maths quite early though - by reception age, many are ready for negative numbers.

hmm...my ds is 2.10 and reading some of these posts he seems a bit behind on counting skills. He knows when there is 2 of something but try to get him to count 3 or 4 things and he can't do it. We try to count together, say from 1-10 but he says 3,4,3,4,3,7,8,7,8,9,8 hooray! Most things are counted as 3,4,3,4 or 7,8,9, instead of 1,2,3

Fraggle your LO sounds advanced to me! My 2.8yr old can't count actual things and when counting by rote usually says '1..2..15..17..hurray!'. I'm not worried. He's not particularly interested yet so I'm not going to push it.

Thanks mrsd! My ds doesn't seem very interested in numbers either so like you, we don't push him. He will learn some day

Counting is one of those things if they learn before school great but not being able to do it doesn't leave them at any disadvantage

Teaching a very small child to count by rote isn't terribly useful beyond 10 (fingers) or 12 (total of two die) as they won't be able to grasp a concept of those quantities/numbers.

However, teaching a child what quantities up to ten/twelve look like, and naming those quantities acccurately, and doing basic addition (and subtraction) is very useful. Board/dice games such as snakes and ladders are a very good idea too.

It's one of those little things I so endearing as he's utterly convinced he's dead grown up and can count properly. I'm going miss it a little bit when he's actually grown up and counts properly

DS is nearly 4yo & only got the hang of counting (up to 10) in the last 6 weeks or so. Couldn't reliably count above 3 or 4 before that. So not the brightest spark, but still well within the normal spectrum.

'I find' even... looks like he hasn't got much chance if I can't even write

Again mrsd, my ds just like yours! He thinks he is counting properly and looks very pleased with himself when he's finished. Although he is not very good with his numbers he is better in other areas so we give him lots of encouragement there.

Hi bedubabe - I also Googled this recently and found quite a good summary on Babycenter.

It certainly sums up my son (2 next weekend) - currently 2, 3, 4 & 5 don't exist, but he's OK up to 10 if you ignore this black hole!

DD3 can usually recite numbers up to 20 (although sometimes there is a black hole between 11 and 17) (from making up her formula in a pint jug + her sisters pushing her along a bit) and can actually count things up 6. Beyond that she gets a bit confused and starts either going back or counting the same thing several times. It's a skill that comes at widely different ages in children- some may not understand even it at 4.

Sorry forgot to say she is 2 y 5m.

DS (2.8) can recognise written numbers 0-10 and will say ooh we are at petrol pump number 8 or whatever it is.

He knows bigger or smaller with numbers too, don't know how he picked that up really, I haven't taught him. Something on tv maybe?!

I think this is really interesting. DD1 2.3yo can recite 1-10 and knows if she has 2 of something without counting, but can't count more than 2 objects reliably.
Sirzy - we have stacking cups with numbers 0 - 9. It is so illogical, that I have had to throw the 0 cup away!