The naughty step seems counterproductive to me - anyone else?

[mariamenendez]

I am trying to use the naughty step/time out with my dd (2.7), but it just seems to escalate the whole situation. She never stays on the step anyway, just throws herself off screaming, either on to floor into full-scale tantrum, or runs after me hanging on to me screaming 'i need a cuddle'/'i've got a sore bottom/I want my daddy/Im being sick' whichever she thinks gets the best reaction.
I ignore all this and just keep putting her back but she is a sobbing screaming mess by end, and after 40mins minimum I may manage to get a wailing, hysterical 'sorry' out of her, but it doesn't feel like she has learnt why she has been put there, even though I tell her calmly, and talk about it afterwards with her.

She has started to tantrum more and more, which is what I am trying to resolve, so I feel it is counterproductive, because she just gets even much more hysterical.
I don't want to dislike her, and dread being with her, but her screaming is doing my head in. If the naughty step makes her scream more, maybe other methods would help more.

She is extremely articulate (when not tantrumming!) and I sometimes wonder if I treat her as being more emotionally mature than she is. Maybe she's just too young for the naughty step?

Any help out there?

I do a version of it with my 2 1/2yr old and 3.9yr old. I warn them first then tell them to sit on the step to calm down and think about what just happened. then we talk about it and i tell them or ask what they should have done instead. i don't time it but watch them out the corner of my eye, i go and speak to them as soon as they look calm and ready to talk.

what kind of stuff starts the tantrum off?

if my 2yr old is beyond talking to then i tell him to sit on his bed with his comforter till he's stopped screaming so we can talk properly. if he's really hysterical and refusing then i tell him i'll shut the door if he can't calm down.

i do the naughty step for 1 min for every year of their life - so a 2 year old gets 2 mins. If they don't stay there then I sit holding them silently - giving no attention - until time is up. I don't always get a sorry immediately but the fact that they are protesting means they know something is being taken away as a result of a naughty action. I tell them on going to the step why they are there - and if I don't get a sorry, I tell them again before I let them go. It takes time and repetition ad nauseum, but not for 4o mins at a time (although some days they repeatedly go back to the naughty step if they are in the mood to keep on doing naughty things!!!!) I also reserve 'time outs' like this for things like hitting / pushing. I try to start off by asking for a sorry, explaining why we don't do things etc, so the naughty step is a last resort.

never done the naughty step. It seems a lot of faff to me. If the DC is being particularly uncooperative then it's the cot if they are young enough, or the bedroom until they have calmed down. Both of those are preceeded with lots of shouting etc, but they soon calm down and can come out when they've done!

oh and BTW, not shouting from me , from the DC who is being told to go to your bedroom! Have to say at the mo, mine are 2 and 6 and actually good to reason with. Even DS2 who is nearly 2 doesn't have tantrums that can't be diffused.

Thanks for your replies - Naturalbaby, onetwooflea- she just starts sobbing and screaming the minute she is put on the step, even if moments before she was just evily laughing at how naughty she was being. There is no talking to her in that state, or even sitting her down (she arches back and stiffens and refuses to sit down), even if moments before she was fine.
If I sit with her and hold her she will just throw herself at me screaming until I cuddle her, it makes her even more hysterical.

It's almost like the step creates a tantrum that wasn't there before.

I think maybe putting her in her room, or just removing myself from her in some way is the best way. Although every time I've put her in her room she throws herself against the door screaming, or rips the bed apart (truly - takes all covers off and pulls mattress off bed). Which I have let her do but she just gets herself in such a state I don't see how it's helping really. I just do it when I need a break myself and am about to lose it.

NotYetEverything - i've been thinking of looking at that, as I think it's a battle of wills really, and dd has an iron will (much stronger than mine, although I fake it well). My friend recommended Raising our children Raising ourselves but I found it a bit too extremely child-led, and meant we would have endless discussions about why she shouldn't have the purple drink for instance, which I just don't have time for when I have to get to work. I also don't think I want to homeschool dd if she doesn't like her teacher, as one chapter recommended.

FunnysInTheGarden - that's reassuring. Maybe the step just isn't for my dd. Although this morning I threatened her with it and she co-operated a bit faster, so maybe yesterday's debacle sunk in somehow.

well she will tantrum because she doesn't want to be on the step, thats the whole point, its an area for punishment, time out, reflection.

Stick with it, if its a change it does take time for them to get it. But if naughty step sticks in your throat maybe see it as a time out space where she can just go to calm down.

When she is calm get down on her level and make sure she has eye contact, then try to end when having resolved the situation with a cuddle and love you.

If you are finding the battle of wills too much, I have to admit I do, time out space is good to get a bit of quiet if they insist on arguing. I use it for arguing and tantrums or repeatedly doing something I asked them not to.

I can't bear the whole naughty step thing. I have seen friends CREATE a situation from using it - the kids were getting a bit frustrated with each other, the parents hadn't seen what had happened, so the elder one got the naughty step, wouldn't stay on it because it wasn't fair, and it just escalated and got hysterical, parents not in control, younger one crowing - i felt so sorry for the kid. They automatically went for that as a solution rather than thinking about what had happened and talking and parenting. I have never used it and have always found that I can eventually work out what is causing the breakdown/behaviour. I would go for a more creative solution frankly, ie when a table was being constantly stood on it made more of a point to remove the table than the child!

I think the whole naughty step is a waste of time and like ladybirds have seen friends made a massive issue out of it, sometimes lasting all afternoon and achieving nothing for something that could have been resolved in a few minutes. I have never seen any evidence that it works.

And also the most effective thing I've found to say with a tantrum is 'do you need a cuddle?' (after they are past full pelt though...) They are only little really.

i loathe the 'naughty step' concept too, especially for a not yet 3 year old who really isn't trying to be 'naughty' but just doing what 3 year olds do. of course you need to deal with it, but i agree that the book notyeteverything linked to is a great starting place, or the similar one i favour which is harvey karp 'happiest toddler on the block'.

Does she like Harry & The Dinosaurs? We used the bottom step as a "place to go and settle down" like Harry has a chair in the book.

It worked really well for us. It stopped me getting wound up to start with, and sort of diffused any tension. Like using the "how to talk..." book, it was just a different way of looking at the same thing, but made a massive difference. The DCs are 8, 9 and 12 now, and on occasion I'll still suggest they take themselves off to settle down, if it's all getting a bit fraught.

Yes, I think the thing is that you're not punishing them, you're giving them tools to help them equip themselves in the world. So I too would sometimes say 'Hmm you seem tired, why don't you go and have a lie down on the sofa' and now my boy will do this himself if he recognizes he's being bad tempered because he's tired. But I would also use play and humour, so instead of getting furious because they won't tidy something up, make a game of it and do it together.

My ds is 2;2, we use the corner. Only for hitting/spitting/aggression. When he does, we say "you need to go in the corner", not shout it etc - just say it, and he goes straight over and sits in it. He often knows, and says breezily "yeah". Then we say, "e.g. No hitting. When you're ready, you can have a cuddle." We don't have set limits, he can come out as soon as he is ready to say sorry/have a cuddle.

Sometimes he will sit in the corner fuming, saying "no way cuddle!, no way sorry! etc" but that's because he's all worked up. It also sometimes happens when he feels terribly justified in having hit you (because you really WERE being THAT annoying). We say e.g. "I know you're cross/excited/grumpy, but you can't hit people" etc. Very calm, very civilised. No "naughty" etc. He's not allowed play with toys in the corner, and I do sometimes make him face it if he's overwraught because it seems to help him calm down faster (less stimulus).

To be fair, ds is very calm and quite rule-bound, he pretty much accepts that this is what's going to happen if he hits at this point. I think our consistency has helped but I can see it's just his first-born cautious/my mum and dad are the centre of the world mentality too... who knows if it will last? Don't expect I will be so lucky as to have another one take to it.

You could look into the concept of "positive parenting" it's detailed in www.ahaparenting.com
(can't link from phone)
Takes a while to read through, but very interesting and makes a lot of sense . Being used to the naughty step technique, it takes a while to change your outlook, but I found that using 'time -in' with dd ( talking, cuddles, explaining) diffused a tantrum much quicker than time -out. In fact, it suggests that it's usually the parent that needs the time out.

I'm still learning it myself, and must admit that it can be hard work, but very rewarding in that you are not wracked with guilt over constant battles with your toddler, and you don't feel like you are always at the naughty stair!
Might be worth a look?

Haha Mampig - I agree it is probably me that needs the timeout when we've reached that point!
I use it when she will no longer listen to me or able to reason with, and she is just arguing or screaming rather than do anything you suggest. This is probably too late a point to use it, and maybe I am not as calm as I am trying to be when I put her on the step, and she can sense that.

Thanks so much for all your suggestions. It's very reassuring. She does respond very well to cuddles, in fact that's all she wants when she's in that state, but I worry that she is then not getting the message that it's wrong to throw food/hit the cat/scream and shout over everything.
But she is only little, so maybe a combination of firmly not engaging with her behaviour and being open to what she is really trying to tell me will be more productive than a punitive naughty step. That is perhaps for when she has learned to deal with her emotions better. She is emotionally volatile, cries easily (just like her mother!) so maybe it is too distressing for her at this stage.
If it's not working for either of us, then I should follow my instincts and try a bit more of a positive parenting approach.

Thanks again for all your help - and NotYetEverything I have ordered the book so you should claim your commission!

I was wanting some advice on the naughty step (well it's a naughty corner for us!) as well please!!!
My DS sits and stays in the naughty corner, but when the time is up and I'm explaining to him why he was put there, he just starts laughing! The same when I ask him to apologise...he's 21 months old, he can't talk, so he just cuddles, but he smirks and laughs all the time while he's doing it. He has also started smiling when I tell him off and give him his final warning before putting him in the naughty corner.
This approach has worked wonders for the past 3 or so months, but it has stopped being effective the last week or so.

Any comments or hints would be greatly welcomed and appreciated as it's so frustrating!

Thank you!

Hello onemoreglass - I don't have any advice except your DS sounds very sweet - maybe it's ok if he's laughing, better than screaming and crying any how?! Maybe he's too young to totally get it? My 2.7 dd possibly gets it too much - absolutely bereft at the very notion of being put on a step!

I can't really add to what the others have said, except to say I don't use the naughty step with my 2 year old because I don't construe her difficult behaviour as being naughty, just that she's 2! I would highly recommend this book playful parenting which helps you make life a bit more fun. It's also really helpful for understanding how children work through their emotions in their behaviour and their play.
For example my DD currently has conjunctivitis and I have to put cream in her eyes twice a day which is horrible for her and me. Last time I had to do it about 6 months ago I felt like a child abuser pinning her down and inflicting something horrible on her, while she was struggling and screaming. This time however, we play a game straight afterwards where she puts the cream in her teddy's eyes (only pretend) and it helps her regain feelings of control over the situation so she doesn't feel so helpless and frustrated. There's a bit of complaining from her each time but no screaming or struggling, the play has made the world of difference.

that's funny, my dd has conjunctivitis too (well that's not funny at all, I know) and she puts some drops in her doggy's eyes too. She has been really good about that, and we are now into her second week of drops, as not clearing up easily poor thing. We use her doggy alot, it dresses her in the morning, brushes her teeth etc.
But sometimes I really think she is actually being naughty, even if she is just copying behaviour she's seen at nursery etc. She screams at me to do things, screams for the telly to be on, for sweet drinks etc, and flings herself on the floor when she doesn't get her way (she never gets her way in these instances), completely out of the blue sometimes. She hits the cat for no reason, or smears her food all over the table when my back is turned. In those cases I feel like i need to let her know it's not ok.
I suppose all this behaviour is also just being 2, I just dont want her to become a whiny, screamy brat, for her own sake, and it's exhausting and unpleasant for her as well as anyone around her.
I just want to find a method that helps her, rather than punishes her, but I think I'm working through it just by posting on here.

A lot of the difficult behaviour at this age because they haven't yet learned to manage their emotions. Toddlers have very little self-control, can't often rein in their impulses, even if they've been told they mustn't/must do something. The naughty step may work with some children, but as you've outlined, it isn't always a helpful approach, especially if they don't really understand what's going on.

If you're interested in "positive parenting" - which basically means taking a non-punitive approach to discipline (and definitely doesn't mean letting the LOs get away with unacceptable behaviour!) then I thoroughly recommend the Positive Discipline series of books.
this one deals with the 0-3 age group. I've found it to be very reassuring and helpful when it comes to suggesting reasons for uncooperative behaviour and ways to tackle it.

Good luck

Interesting update. Ended up using naughty step/time out tonight at dinner time, again for her own sake, so she could get a break from her own hysterics, and from listening to her we discovered she didn't like the step because it was in the hall and she was 'scared of the shadows'. It faces away from the kitchen and towards the front door, and realised she was actually freaked out being sat there.
Put her on mat in the kitchen next to us and she kind of stayed there for 2 mins, after which she had a cuddle and got back on her chair to finish.
So a kind of mixture of positive parenting - listening to why she hated it - and time out - giving her a place to recover and have a fresh start, seemed to almost work tonight.
And it's always weird little things you don't think of - like her actually being frightened on the naughty step - that turn out to be the problem. I suppose that's what you learn from being less controlling and more receptive.

What did you think of How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen Maria? I have found it to be invaluable - has it helped you?

about the smirking things - somewhere i read that kids that young often don't know what to do / how to feel when they are feeling uncomfortable because they are being told off, and they often smirk or smile. It seems to be an innappropriate response, but because they are so young they don't really know how to express / portray their uncomfortable feeling, so they smile (sort of involuntary response really) or try to make things better by smiling. My 5 & 3 yr olds still do this when I know they are sorry, but they just can't express it very well. They just feel uncomfortable and want to stop feeling that way, so they try to smile and do something else instead. I have't explained it well but I think it's in many psychology books.

So in short, don't dwell on the 'wrong thing' let them say sorry and get on with the next thing.

Kwiinkits I have to be honest and say it has sat on kitchen shelf almost untouched since it arrived. However I did look at some of the pictures, and even they seemed really useful - I like the advice of one-word requests, ie 'bath!", 'dinner', 'potty' gets a much better response than a longwinded nag. Also responding with mmms and aaahhhs, when dd's wittering on me endlessly, had the magic effect of keeping me calm.
I do need to read it though, as she has been tantrumming every day, several times a day, and it is still doing my head in. I shall start it tonight!