Answering Back

[emsiewill]

I need some help, please!
Dd1 is now 5, well settled at school and mostly grown out of the uncontrollable rages that she was having last summer (thank goodness!). However, she now gives me & her dad "backchat" constantly. You can't ask/tell her to do anything without her questioning it, moaning, and giving loads of verbals. It really is very wearing. She always has to have the last word, and will never do anything on the first time of asking/telling. We still have "problems" with clothes (except her school uniform - a big relief!), as in she always wants to wear inappropriate clothing, eg her best party dress for the 2 hours between school & bed, or a strappy top & shorts to go to the park in the middle of February. And her hair is another bone of contention - very thick & curly, so I have to spray it with anti-tangle spray (actually I cheat - it's just water & conditioner, but she thinks it's magic!). In order to do this, she has to wear her dressing gown back-to-front, and I have to wrap a towel round her legs (yes, this happens every morning!) so that no spray goes on her clothes/feet. I do this, as I've learnt the hard way that sometimes it's easier to follow these "rituals" than argue, but often I still manage to do something "wrong", eg not comb the hair out of her eyes quickly enough. Frankly, this drives me crazy! I try hard not to get drawn into her arguments "you said 'bathroom', not 'back room'", "no I didn't", "Yes, you did" etc.... as I realise that it just makes it go on all the more. But I'm getting fed up with not being able to leave the house without her having a crisis about something, calling me "nasty", shouting at me etc...
In her defence, I must say that with everyone else (teachers, childminder, grandparents etc) she's polite and helpful - and she often is at home, too. The other day, she dried all the dishes so that "you can sit down sooner, Mum", and this morning she made her & dd2 their breakfast. But how do I deal with this constant answering back/irrational behaviour without losing it? I really am dreading the teenage years if this is what she's like when she's 5.
I do take reassurance from the fact that dd2 is nothing like dd1 in temperament - much more "chilled". If she wasn't, I'd think I must be the worst mum in the world and that I'd "made" them like that.
Sorry if this is a bit waffly, I compose these messages in my head, and them when I sit down to write them, they don't flow 1/2 as well!

emsiewill - she just sounds like a typical daughter to me. Well, not quite since your other daughter is different but, you know what I mean. I know it means a more difficult, "challenging" relationship, life etc but disagreement, questioning and disobedience (within reason, maybe), especially for a girl, should definitely be encouraged , I think.

I happen to have a constantly questioning 5 year old as well - they're hard work but they're great!

Emsiewell, I have a boy, but he will try and draw me into verbal arguments just like this. It can waste so much time, and when I'm trying to have 'happy talk' and find common ground, it leaves me in dispair - all this niggling negativity eats away at your relationship.

I have found a great way of turning these conversations around, though. Whatever answer I give, I end on an upbeat note. So if I say, for instance, 'no, your hair still needs brushing, I end it by saying, 'because it's so wonderful and thick'

Or if my son says 'mum, yes you DID say I could invite my friends into the garden today' when I know full well I didn't, I'll say something like, 'yes, it would be great for your friends to come into the garden - we'll do it sometime this week...If my son then says, 'that's not fair!', I'll say, I wonder if your friends like gardening? do you think they'd like to help in the garden when they come? etc etc etc Then if he says again, 'but you promised TODAY' I repeat 'do you think your friends would like to help in the garden when they come - I see the weather is going to be really warm later in the week - so we might be able to get out the hose.....' - I try to keep to the subject raised, but turn the conversation round to something positive. It really works well with my son on all sorts of occasions, turning a confrontation into a conversation.

Hope this helps!

Tinker & tigermoth, thanks for your thoughts. I have to constantly remind myself to be grateful for the fact that it's because she's bright that she's like this (well, it's also because she's bloody-minded and stubborn, but YKWIM!). I like your idea of keeping the subject, but changing the focus, tigermoth, and I have tried that sort of thing, and you're right, it does work. It's just that sometimes it's so wearing. I've spent the last 5 years "distracting" in various forms and sometimes I feel like I just can't do it for another moment.
I also have a problem in that my idea of parenting is to always allow my children to have their say - not just to say "shut up and do what you're told". When I've asked dd to do something, she's argued, got upset and is saying "just listen to me" and then going over the same thing over and over (this is after I've done the patient explanation thing), I find the best thing is to say "just do what you're told", and break the cycle, but it really goes against my instincts, which is why I find it quite hard, I think.
Any more comments gratefully received.

Emsiewill, I don't know what to say really, I definitely feel I'm in the same boat! My son is 5 in July, and sometimes drives me barmy with his explanations, justifications, prevarications, ... Often he is repeating back to us language that we use to him - bribes, negotiations, threats, etc., but there is a point where it is not acceptable for him to speak to us, or any other adult, in that way. That sounds awful, doesn't it..? I do speak to him with respect, but ultimately he has to learn that adults are in charge, not him, and he cannot lay down the law with us.

Sorry, I can't think of anything encouraging to say. Hope someone else chips in who's been through this and out the other side!

Incidentally, my second son is nothing like this either, he's much more laid-back and co-operative.

Unlike your daughter, my son occasionally gets like this with his nursery teachers too, which causes big problems. I hope he won't do it at school when he starts in September.

It is great, though, isn't it when they do suddenly do something when first asked. My sons made a huge mess today, bringing loads of toys downstairs from their room. I gave them a five minute warning to "tidy-up time", and when that five minutes was up they started tidying up, and cleared it all away. I couldn't believe it! I praised them like crazy!

KMG, thanks for putting so eloquently into words what I was trying to say. I read your message out to dh, and he agreed that your "explanations, justifications, prevarications" description described dd1 exactly. And yes, although I like to think that I listen to my children, they do have to accept that at the end of the day, the adults are in charge.
Thank you for letting me know we're not alone!

I was just reading about this and it said that the ages for temper tantrums are at around 2, 5 and puberty, when a child is asserting their independence and sense of "self". So there you go, your dd is quite "normal"!!!

We also have a 5 yr old dd, but I fear we are yet to fully enter this phase, although she can be cheeky and obnoxious at times...she had terrible 3's instead of 2's so we could be in for it next year!

Just like to add that we too are in this boat dd who starts school in September is exactly how emsiewill and KMG describe your children, It really helps to know their are others going through this. I'm afraid I can't offer any practical advice, just that I can really understand how you are feeling at the moment and know how extremely frustrating etc. etc. ot can be. Thanks lso for some great advice from everyone else, I for one will definatly being trying it out.

Please ignore dreadful grammer, spelling etc. it is Monday Mroning!!!

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Bloss, You wait!!!!
I've got a 21/4 year old and a 31/2 year old so I know about this!! If you turned around and said 'yes you can wear the dress to the park' then they would change their mind and want something else on. They test the boundaries to the limit and need to work out how much control they have over you so it is not as easy as you make out.
Sometimes when they are arguing about something you can distract their attention with something else. Sometimes they just don't want to reason with you. Yesterday my son and daughter were playing in the garden and my son (3 1/2) decided he did not want my daughter to play with the wheel barrow. No amount of reasoning seemed to get through to him. In the end I had to send him to his room and not let him down until he had stopped screaming and would allow my daughter to have the wheel barrow.
It is not as simple as you would think. Sometimes they want to be argumentative to see how far they can go. You wait!!!

emsiewill, as an alternative to ' just do as you're told' you could say 'nothing happens till you do this'. This line only works when you're not in a rush, of course.

I have found it effective, for instance, at the weekend, when my son is looking forward to going out with me, but is prevaricating about putting on his shoes. Or if he is looking forward to his supper, but won't wash his hands. I down tools and act like I've lost interest in the treat, till he sorts himself out. I only do this, though, if he's got some quick and simple task to do, otherwise he gets too bad tempered.

As you say, it's so wearing to repeat the same thing over and over again, and I am very guilty of doing this, too. Any tip I'm passing on to you has worked for us at times, but hasn't worked miracles.

Bloss does have a point, sometimes IME you have to let the small things go, and ask yourself if the battle is worth it. eg when my son insists on wearing a totally unsuitable outfit for the park, I give in, and take a change of clothes with me, or his coat.

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We've recently "come out the other end" of this phase with our dd (6y) and it was so tiresome! It does seem to wear off, (no doubt to return at 13 or so) but in the mean time I can only echo what others have said. We found that by sticking to a certain set of rules and being as flexible as possible with things that didn't matter as much, life got easier, so no schools shoes to the park but snow white dressing up outfit ok, but no new one if it gets ruined..
Have to say that I don't think you should worry too much about laying down the law from time-to-time. Kids need boundaries and in certain situations adults get the last word! In the mean time try and remember the nice things, the washing-up story was lovely!

Bloss, exactly. My little Lou, who is 2 1/4, would not dream of behaving at nursery the way she does with me. Even with my husband she is as good as gold. Sometimes when she is creating my husband tells me to walk away from her and like magic when I do she stops!!
I think that because I'm her mum and we have that special bond she needs to test me the most!! I have the same problem with my son who is 3 1/2 but I can reason a lot more with him now and he doesn't feel the need to push me to my limit! I feel that I am about to embark on the next phase with him, what ever that is going to be, can't wait!!

Thanks for all the input.
Bloss, believe me, there's many times she's played outside in skimpy top and shorts in the middle of winter! And I do leave it to her to realise she's the loser there! As you say, I try to save the arguments for the things that matter (an expert at this as I've been doing it since she was 2 - the number of old ladies who've tutted and said "is she not cold without her coat?"!)
Tigermoth, as I'm sure you know, a lot of the time arguments occur when we're in a hurry - or when to "punish" one of them would "punish" the other (eg "OK we won't go swimming/to the park" etc...)
I think the main thing I wanted was reassurance that I'm not the only one going through this, and that I'm on the right track. And it's always good to have a moan and get it off my chest!
When you live with a 5 year old that always knows best, sometimes, you start to doubt yourself!

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emsiewill, (I'm sure this has occurred to you, too) imagine if suddenly, there was no questioning, no backchat, just a little girl who did everything like a robot. Much, much more scary!

Mine has just started calling us by our first names. She often refers to her daddy as 'mate', shouting 'Oi mate!' to him and then she will say that we are 'duhhh!' - The Simpsons. She's only 21 months!

My youngest wouldn't call her eldest brother by his name; she just used to yell 'Oi, Boy' if she wanted something!!

Sorry if I sound like I'm pooh-poohing all your suggestions, I really don't want to come across like that. I really am grateful that people take time to come up with ideas, and as I said before I'm just glad to know I'm not alone!

Well i think that you should be paying more atention to dd2 she might feel left out and she might want to argue