article on compliant children versus rebellious ones, just appeared on guardian.co.uk

[moanyoldbag]

check this out - it's just gone up on the Guardian's website. Brilliant Annalisa Barbieri questions whether compliant children are really the aim of the game when it comes to parenting. Join the debate or forward the link on...

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jan/19/are-obedient-children-a-good-thing?INTCMP=SRCH

IndigoBell - I agree entirely that the right sort of parenting is about teaching children why you require certain behaviours of them, not about bribing and manipulating them into short-term compliance.

Having said that, if ever DD is being really awful, I tell her that if she is so unpleasant to me, I will have no choice other than to get her a nanny as her company is unbearable for me. It transforms her behaviour immediately!

I agree Kveta!

And Indigo, I agree too. DS has to obey certain things and other things, well I just ask myself why don't I want him to do it - oil your battles and all that.

When i visit France I always think that their children are well behaved in restaurants. But then again so are mine mostly and they are not so used to eating out.
Also mine have been given books and stuff to keep them amused , they are not so good at waiting patiently but that may be because of their age.

Things my toddler has had meltdowns about recently- holding hands when crossing the road, brushing teeth and having mud soaked clothes taken off him - have all been cases of 'sorry, there's no choice here. This is what we have to do'. I am glad it gets a bit easier as they get older.

You are right Kveta. As the book title suggets it emphasises 'love and reason' over dominance and control. It's not about some huge hippy, permissive, free for all. It is about teaching kids to be responsible, kind, compassionate adults who feel that their voice is valued ie. when they percieve a problem they will speak out rather than just stay silent. This is what we would expect an adult to do but sometimes children are expected to put up and shut up by virtue of being small and not contributing financially to the household. The latter was my experience as a child and it took me until my mid-30's to really believe that I had a right to an opinion . I don't know anybody who raises their kids like this in the 21st Century though.

Astronaut79 - my daughter is, ahem, challenging at home (very energetic, opinionated, not afraid to speak her mind...) and I was terrified when starting school that she would cause real problems for herself. She started one month after her fourth birthday, and struggled the first week with the rules and the having-to-sit-still moments, but within a couple of weeks was fine. Teachers say she is no trouble, behaves very well. I think children mostly 'conform' at school once they realise that they are supposed to.

kveta - you've got it right, except (because you haven't read the book) it's also about not using rewards and punishments to get your child to comply.

If your child has to do something. They have to do it. No use bribing them. For example if you pay them pocket money conditional on them doing their homework or the dishes or whatever - what happens when they decide they're rather not have their pocket money and not do the dishes / homework?

Instead make it clear they have to do the dishes because they live in the house.

You don't want them to do their homework in order to get pocket money. You want them to do their homework because they want to do well at school. It's not about pleasing you, or pleasing the teacher, or just getting it done as quickly as possible. It's about them doing a good job and being proud of it.

Actually life really isn't that simple.

Children are taught to respect their elders. Respect is a healthy thing in this society and so many kids don't have it. Many children lead their parents a merry dance, there really isn't any of this "you must comply" from parents expect perhaps those who live in Notting Hill. The kids I see are street-wise, rough, independent and with zero respect for any kind of authority whatsoever.

Yes a child's voice needs to be heard and as a parent you have to pick your battles, but we are not trying to raise compliant kids. I do not know of a single parent who expects top behaviour all the time but I know of plenty who lost control a long time ago and have given up trying to get it back.

So yes, it's relevant for those children who may have a sheltered upbringing and who have certain expectations thrust upon them. But I suspect that is a tiny minority. As seen with the riots and so on, when a child is brought up without discipline, without respect, then that child grows into a disrespectful adult.

Most of us are able to take the middle ground and lay down realistic expectations that combine respect for adults and self-confidence. We encourage our children to make decisions, to be different, to speak out but we also expect them to understand consequences and take responsibility.

I just didn't see anything in that article that was not already good common sense.

I was brought up to be very well behaved, compliant even but I never blindly went along with my peer group. I didn't smoke even though my friends were; I didn't shop lift even though my best friend did. I am a 'well behaved' adult but that doesn't mean I am a doormat. It just means that I have been brought up to follow a very strong moral code.

Indigo I'm going to have to read the book - what you said about doing homework etc is exactly how I think it should be. I had a discussion with dh about this who thinks that kids should "earn" by doing chores etc for money whereas I think that's never a good idea. We'll have to resolve it before DS gets older!

wordfactory, French children are far from compliant. We lived in France for two years and I taught at a secondary school and also held English classes for primary aged kids. They were unruly and quite disobedient I can tell you!

The only reason kids in France are good in restaurants is because they are familiar with the surroundings and what is expected of them. The French eat out a lot, it's a way of life with them and they do so with their children. Getting a babysitter, as we discovered, is something they have little concept of.

Our neighbour's child was given chocolate biscuits for breakfast and brought home for lunch to be fed nutella sandwiches.
He was also a little monkey who would pile up stones on the roof of our van so that when we set off they'd all roll and clatter about!

Yes they did believe in corporal punishment at home but from what I saw, it rarely worked.

I've read stuff about unconditional parenting before though, and it just doesn't sit right with me. I think that small children SHOULD learn that some things must be obeyed, and that they are actually not the centre of the universe, and thus should know when to just accept a situation. I also think they should know that bad behaviour has a bad consequence, and tha boundaries should be established from as early an age as possible, to allow them to learn at their own speed.

I also feel that thye should be allowed to question, but not always, and (as belgo says) should be brought up following a strong moral code. I have some friends who do everything 'nicey nicey' and sit down to talk their toddler through why biting my child (for example) is wrong - I'm more of the remove badly behaved child from situation and leave them to stew for a few minutes, to show them that their behaviour is not acceptable. I don't think a 2 year old understands the quiet voice and gentle hug when he's done something wrong - I think he does need it to be clear to him that he has misbehaved. Obviously only time will tell which system works best!! :o

But equally, I was brought up to understand that me misbehaving meant weeks of ill temper and sniping from my father, with the occasional beating thrown in for good measure, and that sometimes it would make my mother cry and blame everything on us and other times she would protect us from dad's temper, and other times she would join him in berating us or going in a huff. Not a good way to learn what's good/bad!! but I am a reasonably well-behaved adult, and have never been one for following the crowds, so who knows what is right/wrong?!

Anyway, I want DS (and DD when she arrives!) to feel secure with DH and I, and for us to be consistent parents - so have the same boundaries all the time, to not hold grudges when children misbehave, and to have clear consequences for poor behaviour, as well as for good behaviour. I don't mind using occasional bribery for good behaviour, but equally won't reward good exam results with cash, as they should be their own reward. Luckily DH agrees with me on this, and so far (2 years in!) we are pretty good at being consistent. Sadly, DS spends a lot of time being, well, 2, and testing our faith in our parenting skillz, but everyone else he interacts with thinks he is a delight, so we just hope we are doing the right thing...

If you remove a child when they bite - what will they learn?

Will they learn that biting is wrong? Or will they learn not to get caught?

You can remove a child from the child they've bitten, and sit and talk through with them why they've been removed - rather than just 'letting them stew' - where they'll probably be stewing about what they can do to get their own back.

And you can teach them that some things must be obeyed using unconditional parenting. But you just have to be very clear (in your own head) why they should be obeying you.

IndigoBell I've been aware of that book before and have had discussions about it with friends who agree with it. I think my views on it are summed up by the negative reviews on Amazon that you linked to.

I think its a bit ridiculous to say that the trend is for raising compliant children. Children are given much more free reign now and less 'good' behaviour is expected from them.

Manners are important and society has its boundries and it makes sense for children to have them too. For instance, I will not stand for my children not saying hello and goodbye to everyone they meet. However I dont get too stressed out about the odd defiant tantrum in the home or even the odd crazy idea like wearing a tiara and tutu to bed.

In essence I am trying to bring up my children to be polite, well behaved and understanding of societies boundries while still maintaining and growing their own free will and confidence.
I am not what you would call a free spirit myself so it would be strange for me to adopt another approach.

I totally agree with Arcticwaffle, the article doesn't convince ne 100%.

Interesting therhubarb.

I must admit that I am torn between giving my DC choices and imposing respect for others. The two often do not marry however much we try.

Indigo - how is that teaching them responsibility and consequences? Surely it is better to explain to them why it was wrong and why they will have to accept a punishment of sitting alone for a couple of minutes in Time Out (consequences) then getting them to apologise for their behaviour (responsibility).

Bonsoir I am new to Paris and my experience seems to be so far of children being slapped and called 'little bastards' in the Park for misbehaving.

I do think that telling children that they will be in trouble, sent to bed, denied something etc is totally fine but I do think they go a bit overboard.

I'd rather have a child who misbehaved a bit than slap them silly in the park.

If you remove a child when they bite - what will they learn?

Will they learn that biting is wrong? Or will they learn not to get caught?

You can remove a child from the child they've bitten, and sit and talk through with them why they've been removed - rather than just 'letting them stew' - where they'll probably be stewing about what they can do to get their own back.

Who wouldn't actually tell their children why you shouldn't bite?! This is critising parents who largely don't even exsist! No one needs to read that book to know this or adopt a whole new philosophy to parenting.

TheRhubarb and Indigo Why cant you do both - time out and an apology.
Thats what we did during a particularly poor spell of bad behaviour - it worked !

wordfactory - that's why I believe that responsibility is so important. Yes they have the freedom to make those choices, but if it turns out wrong then they also need to be taught how to take full responsibility and accept the consequences.

A young child often doesn't make decisions, they act from instinct but they still have some sense of what is right and wrong. Explaining the whys and wherefores to a very young child won't matter one jot to them, so taking them away as Indigo says is the best solution. Not laughing at their funny behaviour as I've seen some parents do.

When a child starts to make decisions, that's when you can reason with them and teach them about respect (for themselves as well as others) and if they choose to misbehave then they must face up to the consequences that the misbehaviour brings. That might be taking them away from the dinner table or taking away a favourite toy. Apologising is very important to help them understand that they have to respect the feelings of others.

The reality is that there are certain things that DC should comply with - manners, safety, personal hygene, respect for others.

And there are certain times when compliance is necessary even for small things -running late for a flight is not the time to discuss the fact that DC are thirsty, during a ballet is not the time to sing...

snapsnap - that's exactly what I do. But it is important to explain to older children why they are being sent to time out. Many parents just shove them on the naughty step without a word, which makes the child resentful.

I think it is a rubbish article.

Children need to be given freedom within limits. You don't want your adolescent hitting you if they disagree but you do want them to be able to intelligently question your decisions. Similarly, with a toddler, you can always explain why something is wrong but, once explained, they have to be made to comply within at least reasonable boundaries. Discussions are great but mindless disobedience makes a child uneducable and an adult unemployable.

Of course, there is the opposite side of the coin where children are cowed and overly disciplined but, I have to say that at least in my area (SW London) I see far more overentitled toddlers throwing their weight around and really needing "guidance", for want of a better word, than overdisciplined scared children. The fashion now is not for compliant children at all. It has gone completely the other way.

Crossed with you therhubarb.

Yes, accepting consequences is a lesson everyone must learn. The trouble is DC often can't envisage the fall out from an action can they?

Yes, you discuss the likely consequences but ultimately if the DC is still bent on a potentially damaging behaviour then I think as adults we would be negating our responsibilities if we didn't itervene.