I need help with 4yo DD

[mememummy]

My DD turned 4 in december, and has turned into a monster with attitude, she is answering back, taking up to an hour to eat, it took her 30 mins to put her pants on this morning and then had a massive tantrum as she was late for dancing, if i ask her to put her coat on she will cry and say she cant she turns the waterworks on so easily. I have dropped her at her nans as i could of slapped her after she told me i am a rubbish mum and she wanted to live with her nan. DH is at work, i am 32 weeks with dc2 and feel so utterly useless, just want to cry. How do I deal with the answering back constant crying? I have tried reward charts, good girl balls, naughty step, with holding toys counting even a tap on the hand nothing works.

I would think its connected to the imminent arrival of her sibling? She knows its going to be a big deal but is maybe also apprehensive about what it means for her place in the family etc.

As disciplining her doesn't seem to work how about trying lots of reassuring and attention. Chatting about what a baby will be like, how important a big sister is, all that stuff, as well as playing whatever she wants (not trampolining obviously, whatever you feel up to). Basically ignore the horrible behaviour and give her as much attention as you can now, as I'd say that is what all the not-putting-coat-on is seeking, as presumeably she is actually capabale of doing these things. Worth a shot?

And don't feel bad about making use of her nan so you can get a break, the last bit of pregnancy is knackering.

You have pretty much described my 3.4 yo DS, who has been like that for about 4 or 5 months, since I was about as pg as you with DD. DD is now 12 weeks old. Use her nan, give yourselves both a break, and ramp up the cuddles when you are both feeling calmer.

A week before DD was born, DS and I had a sofa day - CBeebies, tea, toast, cuddles and not much else. He was lovely after that. I have only managed to do something similar (for only a couple of hours) once since DD was born, but the result was the same. The older child needs reminding that you still love them too.

I have found with my DD that all the naughty step etc methods become too much of a bind. They seem to take over when talking something through might work better.

I also found, in a tricky patch with DD, that an earlier bedtime helped a lot. we're back to a later one now but that's mainly because of the younger child. She would go earlier if she could.

I have noticed that she absolutely basks in kisses, cuddles, strokes and compliments but i don' tmake then dependent on anything. I often give them to her when she is being ratty.

Also, she acts out things from preschool, even behaviour that she doesn't like. If I find her being incomprehensible, or suddenly grabbing DS roud the throat or something, if I talk it through with her I often find she's acting out something thta has worried her at school.

And I do lose my rag with her sometimes and if it's not really her fault (eg DS has been keeping me awake for days on end and I'm ratty) I apologise.

I also often think, 'Give a dog a bad name and he'll bite you,' and try to adjust my behaviour accordingly.

They're also supposed to be a bit of a PITA aren't they?

Thankyou xxx i dont know what i would do without mumsnet, cuddles and affection does help she is also sleepwalking so something must be playing on her mind xxx

It's not the terrible twos, it's the effing fours.

Perfectly normal I think. Be firm, set boundaries and stick to them as it will pay off in years to come

In terms of answering back, naughty step, no discussion, keep going back.

Ask three times, tell once and then naughty step. Keep going with it.

If she says she hates you, explain about hurt feelings.

Thinking about it the one thing that turned things around in our house was a family law. We sat down and all signed a document we agreed "in our family we do not hit, punch, etc and we will be kind to each other etc". Everyone signed it and whenever the family law was broken, naughty step. Then stood then in front of it and I am sure now hey could still recite it by rote.

I think I agree with Latrucha. We did too much naughty stepping, putting our LO in her room when she misbehaved (dd was a nightmare at 4) I would add that a lot of the things she is winding you up over can be ignored. Try not to show you are upset by her behaviour, as that is WHY she wants to wind you up, to get the maximum attention, whether it is bad or good. If she doesn't want the eat the food, find something she likes and stick religiously to it. Don't force her to eat, stress makes appetite disappear.
If she doesn't want to wear her coat, just take it with you until she asks for it. Don't comment either way.
If she doesn't want to put her pants on, try distracting her from the windup, by talking about something else entirely, don't plead and scold.

Dd magically transformed with less treats, less "things", less bribery, less rewards, and more chatting, more cuddles, staying close, talking very matter of factly. I think she felt utterly alienated when we were strict and cross, and she didn't even equate what SHE was doing with our response, she just felt more and more upset and had more and more tantrums.

Distraction, little friends, other lovely adults who were tactful and gentle and listened to her made such a difference. And loads of hugs, and early bedtime, and really just going backwards into babydom a bit, expecting less of her, yet respecting her independence [gosh that sounds a bit of guff doesn't it) Just feeling SAFE.

Good luck dd reduced me to tears so many times, she is now 9 and I really regret that I didn't realise she was just four when she was four!

Also, saying No was something we didn't try often enough, instead we got involved in endless negotiations. And a four year old shouldn't be in a position where they are negotiating. They want to know what the reasonable boundaries are and that you are going to stick with them. Otherwise they are never quite sure what is happening next or what is expected of them...

I very much agree about abonding the naughty dtep it seems to exhaust its self around 3 or 4 years old, when they realise it can and will become an exhausting battle and rightfully so when talking and reasoning is a skill to be devolped at this age. And when that fails a more punative nature that has a meaningfull impact is the way for ward.

I progressed from the naughty step with a brief and clear explination as to why a certain behaviour etc was not appropriate, would give dd a warning if it continued then, for instance no playing in the bath, it would be bath supper to bed with no time to play.

I would keep it fairly consistant for a while so she understood a clear puntative action. so if she missed behaved after dinner time it would be no playing in bath. If she miss behaved in the morning, then fav tv programme or trip out would be stopped.

They soon begin to learn how a break in routine would be detrimental and so a warning tends to be enough to either get you both in a possitive frame, I often would say to dd and that would be a shame as we have so much fun at bath or at the library and it gives a chance to break the negative cycle.

give your warning and walk away if she has lost control of her ability to regulate her own behaviour, if she open to reason, be tactile and loving in your warning, distract her from the negativity.

I also feel that this a very normal stage of development and probably has very little to do with a new baby, it has coincided with it yes and possibly impacted on her but, I definatly seen this regression etc with my own dd and the strenghth of will yoiu describe, at 4 she is learning to regulate her own behaviour, actions and emotions and its pretty exhausting so no wonder she has slightly regressed. I would also help her out a bit and help with putting on pants or coat, pick your battles, there is no point getting to the stage you both did that resulted in you dropping her off to someone else, that achived nothing for either of you. compromise is a skill you need to teach her so why not start with small compromises like helping with pants when she has a nursery session ahead and she is delaying it. ill help with your pants but you must put your books away, get your shoes, take your plate to the sink etc as we must get to nursery on time and that would be very grown up if you could manage that.

at 32 wks pg you really dont need to be battling with a 4 year old over pants