Defiance..but only at school...

[polarfox]

My DS, first year at juniors, is a lovely, bubbly, empathetic guy, which -hand on heart!!- is no trouble at home, or when we go on holiday, or when he visits his friends home for play tea...BUT at school he is a little rascal..
He defies teachers requests on a daily basis, flat out refuses to cooperate. He ends up heading for the headmistress (almost daily!!) anf next day.. again more of the same..

I have tried all sorts of approaches at home: friendly discussion/rewards/sanctions/shouting.. (not at the same time!!!..) , he ends up promising will never happen again, but it sure does.
He's not a very articulate child, but there doesnt seem to be a trigger; if anything he likes school- am worried though that he doesnt seem to respect teachers (and he has actually been lucky in that he has lovely teachers)..

I do so need to teach him somehow that authority will always play a part in his life, and he needs to respect , or at least not defy the people in charge of his schooling.....

Any ideas? Anybody been there and has words of wisdom? Do they somehow (please!!!) grow out of this????

Sorry, no personal experience of this (yet!). I just wondered if you've tried asking the teachers / headmistress how they feel you could best support their disciplining techniques?

Can you work with the school to design a behaviour chart that you DC can have input into. It is positive reinforcement so they get a tick each lesson / 1/2 hr etc that they behave and have to get a certain no of ticks each day to get a reward. This is used as a reminder to avoid silly behaviour. I would also look at how the teachers deal with your child. Where does your DC sit on carpet and at desks as makes a huge difference. What does you child say about their behaviour and reasons? If being sent to the head is not stopping it then it is a pointless exercise and the chance for a little wander out of class plus one to one attention but of the negative kind.

polarfox you are not alone.

My DS is exactly the same. He is very very well behaved at home, out, visiting friends, never had tantrums as a toddler, helps around the house, is lovely, kind and caring, but at school.... a different story altogether. He is defiant, stubborn etc.

He's now in year 4 so the school have been working with him and his difficulties for over four years. He has finally got a diagnosis of AS and has a TA. This year is the first year we have seen a marked improvement in how he handles school. He is learning more and more and actually getting his work done, and sometimes goes a whole week without visiting the head's office! Progress for sure.

I worked (and still do work) very closely with the school, with his teacher, the head and the TAs, to help him. We have tried numerous different strategies, but daily contact and updates and debreifing from his teacher and TA are essential, and combining how he behaves at school with what he gets to do at home plays a huge part in his own control over his behaviour. Also, talking to him about it, giving him responsibility and control over his actions, so he knows that it is his choice if he is defiant at school he looses his screen time (the only thing that he cares enough about that is matters if he looses it).

We also use a lot (and I mean a lot) of positive reinforcement, praise praise every little tihng he does right, even if you would expect that of a 9 year old anyway. Shouting and getting cross and too much punishment don't work, but praise and consequences do.

I suggest you make an appointment to see the SENCO at school and at least rule out things like AS or oppositional definat disorder or other things that could be triggering his behaviour at school, because there will be something that is triggering it. Home is secure to him, school is not.

Thanks so much for the replies!

candr we have started a daily chart at school, broken into segments of the day whereby he can get points, so he does get top points at some sessions, but never full on a day!!
At least though that directs him into what it is he does right/wrong..

overmydeadbody your son and mine are identical, so it gives me hope what you are saying..I do agree about the secure at home aspect. I do get a daily briefing and do the consequences as you mention, what I must admit I dont do is the praising, definitely not at the degree you advice, so that's food for thought!!! -probably for the reason that I see it as expectant,age appropriate behaviour as you said!!!
I shall see the Senco too. I have looked into triggers but none are apparent to me, not saying there arent any though he hasnt vocalised/hinted on any, so no ovious pattern to that ..
What is AS, how do you go into diagnosing that and would a senco know about AS and oppositional defiant disorder?

Sorry for late replies, been away for few days...Had, as always, a lovely,loving, easy holiday with him over Christmas- dreading school tomorrow..

overmydeadbody, polarfox i have exactly the same issues with my ds, he is in year 3 and his behaviour towards the teachers is often rude and defiant. He regulary gets sent to the headmaster, he seems to enjoy being confrontational and questions what he is being asked to do all the time. Yet...at home he's fine, he listens to me, helps around the house, he's kind and loving. I get really upset when he tells me he hates school, why is it such a long day, the works boring etc.. when i ask him if wants to change schools he goes beserk and says he loves his school?? Our headmaster has been great and has told me he is sure ds has autism and finds school difficult. We have tried lots of different things but as yet nothing seems to work. I have been to see gp and am waiting for an appointment to see behaviour specialist, im told its a long road waiting for a diagnosis for autism. I too am dreading the return to school and his miserable face when he's going in the morning, he looks so sad

millimoohoo I did change him school, he had labelled himself as the "difficult" one at his previous school and he was stuck in a rut. The new school is better in that the teachers are warmer and more nurturing-they do praise much better, and he is happier there so am glad I did the move. In the beginning he was better but the defiance and the "no" are creaping back in... Somebody suggested EyeQ vitamin supplements (fish oils but at optimum levels) so shall start on those in hope.. I shall check oautism sites too....

polar, was your ds open to moving school? I feel like my ds is labelled in his school, at the christmas carol service he was seated to the side with a teacher and another 'difficult' child. Im sure he would have been ok with the others but school seem mainly concerned with maintaining an image and wont take chances with his behaviour. I took him to a pantomine recently and he sat for 2 hrs, no problem! I dont know whether to move him against his wishes or just let it be. School seem abit clueless about what to do next, he just gets sent to headmaster, obviously it isnt working otherwise he wouldnt be there everyday. The thing that niggles away at me is the fact that he was fine in reception and yr1, it all started in yr2/3, he was moved into a split class with yr3 as he's a bright boy. His behaviour went downhill after a month or so in that class, i thought the teacher he had was dreadful, she could teach well but not deal with behaviour issues. Ive lost confidence in the school although i like the headmaster, like ive mentioned ds goes mad if i talk about a new school, but i feel it would be a good move, what to do???

milli I moved him as the "label" had well and tryly stuck.. The old school was good- as a matter of fact I left my other DC there as they had no problems; the thing was the teachers there IMO can only cope with a certain type of child; the type of child that easily complies and has no special needs.Any child that does not fit into that box (like my DS but also others) and they were clueless. I felt I needed to be proactive, and find out whether the school was the problem or him- I guess I didnt want to have any regrets in the future that I didnt try hard enough for other solutions!!
In the new school he started off amazingly well..no trouble for weeks as he was new and it managed to break that cycle.. and yes his defiance did appear again (hence my post!!!>>) but on the up side his self esteem and confidence did improve loads, and at least I was proved right on that front!! And to be fair the new school seems to be trying harder to come up with solutions, is more sensitive and nurturing.

I did not tell him he was moving, nor did I ask him. I let him go to school on the last day of term as normal, that night I told him he was going to new school after the haldf term- he went ape, but over the week I sold it to him so well that he was looking forward to it, gave him lots of reasons why I believed this school was better for him (made up ones, focusing on what he would like to hear like they love football there and the teacher is so much more fun etc) and went in happily, and loved it .. I did spend days agonising how to break it to him, and this seemed to me the best way all around and surprisingly (but for the first few hours when he went into some shock..) it was easier-much easier than I thought!!
Hope that helps.....

Polar - thanks for your post, its always good to hear different perpectives. Sorry i missed the fact you sent original post! Doh.. Good luck to you and your ds.