has anyone had success with the 'routines'?

[wingingitk]

I am at my wits end with DS as he seems never to want to go down for a nap and is grizzly all the time. I wanted to know if people had success with any routines (from books or ones they have made up themselves). DS is only 5 weeks so I am of course not expecting him to sleep through the night or anything like that but I would really like to get him into a routine. DH has been so wonderful. When he comes home from work he takes over and sends me to bed as I am so exhausted. But that means he is alone with DS screaming his head off in the evenings until his next feed when I take over. I am not expecting miracles but I would so love a way to try and eventually get to a point where we have some time together. Any advice would be so appreciated.

wingingit I hate to say it but the only thing that's going to work here is time. 5 weeks is too young to do anything other than feed and sleep on demand imo. In a few weeks he may well be easier by himself (6 weeks is normally the worst / most crying point and after that they get easier).

If he's not getting any easier in a few weeks, you can try and create a few sleep association e.g. bath feed and in the moses basket at around the same time every night, same blanket/ swaddle / same song every sleep etc.

FWIW both mine were really horrifically crying screaming bundles of grumpiness at this age and they were both sleeping fairly predictably at 4/5 months and not as bad crying wise (reflux aside).

Sometimes they are grizzly in the evenings because they are having a growth spurt and they want to cluster feed, you may want to just feed the bugger every time he makes a noise for a while (if you can feed lying down you could do it snoozing with DHs supervision if that helps).

You will get your evenings back soon but don't create more work for yourself by trying a routine he's not ready for.

Changing words from the song "you will survive". :) Then (6 months later?) regular walks and granny's vistis could help you.

The thing that worked for both of mine is feeding when they are hungry and sleeping when they do

thanks buggyRunner have tried that going with the flow approach but the point is that he doesn't sleep.

I had success with a routine (but it is not popular on Mumsnet to mention this) but to be fair I don't know if it was the routine or the fact that I just had a very easy baby who ate and slept - it wasn't all plain sailing as he did have serious health issues but that didn't seem to effect (affect??) his sleep patterns. Do you pick your baby up the minute he cries? I would let my DS grizzle a bit when I put him down and he learned to fall asleep on his own - I always put him in his own room for naps and bedtime.

My view will be flamed by other Mumsnetters though - but I have a thick skin and this was over ten years ago, DS has never, ever had a problem going to bed or sleeping .

My DS took to the GF routine like a duck to water, he was 6 weeks at the time. We'd had a crappy start and I was out of my depth so had to get some control over things.

But I think it was second nature to him, I didn't have to let him cry or get crabby, it suited him from the start. I tried it with my DD and it wasn't until she was about 5mo (and no longer bf) that things settled down.

I wouldn't battle to have a routine TBH. Some babies suit them, some don't.

I would say that the biggest lesson I learnt which made dd2 far easier than dd1 is that babies r noisy sleepers. Grunts, moans and noise is normal and doesn't mean they are awake. I always wait 30 seconds before reacting to noise at night- then I ensure she's awake when I feed her/ disturb her

Wingingit DS1 never seemed to fall asleep like other people's babies, where they fall asleep in your arms / in the pram etc. He did used to sleep in the pram when v tiny if I walked very very vigorously (I think he just didn't want me to be comfortable).

Swaddling really really helped, have you tried it? Or fairly vigorous rocking (DH used to do really good rocking at that age!) As I mentioned before he had reflux which didn't help. Screaming in the evenings for hours is sometimes called colic, would you say he was a colicky baby e.g. windy, screaming for 3 hours at a stretch? Does he feed ok?

You could try a routine but the risk is the timings won't work for you.

Better to learn the tired signs so you can anticipate naps then your baby will probably findhis own routine (I found the gina ford awake times were too long so followed tired signs which worked much better).

General rule of thumb is that tiny babies get easily overstimulated and usually tolerate 45-90 mins of being awake before needing to nap. Morning naps usually need to happen after 45'mins and afternoon ones you might be able to get away with 90 mins. Early tired signs are losing interest, not maintaining eye contact, looking away, then you get the grumpy shout then past the point of no return where crying starts. With DS it was easier to use a sling for naps and go outside for a walk as the fresh air knocked him out. Doing this for most naps meant he got the hang of napping and by 8 weeks or so he had a nice routine going.

Their routines do change quite a lot in the first 6 months so you do have to go with the "flow" ie follow their lead. As they get intto solids you getmore structure and things settle down a lot.

We had DS in a routine from about 3 months old but even before that he was quite regular with feeds and naps so it was never a problem. From 3 months he has slept through the night in his own room and sleep times have always been easy for us. He is 2.8 now and not as easy as he was as a baby!

We did EASy- Eat, Activity, Sleep (you time!)

It's not a hard and fast 'routine' but at least means your days go in roughly predicatble cycles. Eat- about 30mins, Activity- 60-90mins Sleep 30-90mins.

Once DS started showing any 'tells' of being tired I would walk him to sleep- sometimes took him quite a while but I persisted because I knew if he'd had enough activity then he needed it.

We bathed him as part of his early evening 'activity' and then after that he stayed in his own cot in his own room (from day one) replacing the night time 'activity' slots with more sleep!

We've had trouble getting him to stay asleep all night and he still has a late feed at 10.30ish (now 16mo) but he's always gone back down easily when he wakes at night (never, ever left him to cry) and has always spent the whole night from 6pmish onwards in his own room which means we get some time to ourselves.

The EASy routine helped me in the early days because I still felt that I was being responsive to his needs but I at least had SOME idea of what was coming next!

I think 5 weeks is probably too young for a routine. The main thing imo is to feed as much as possible. DD got into a perfect routine of her own accord by 3mths but before that every evening was extreme crying from 4pm-11pm. I just went with it and kept trying to feed. In retrospect I should have probably tried a bottle to see if it made any difference. She also didn't have any naps during the day unless she was in the car or the pram. In the house she would just feed and doze on my lap, but the moment I tried to put her in her moses basket she would wake up. Just take it easy and enjoy the quiet time feeding during the day if you can!

I read The Baby Whisperer to which gave me a bit of an idea how we could structure our day, and what "tired" signs to look for with ds1 (I was clueless!), but it took until about 14 weeks before we'd fallen into what I would call a decent routine.

Stick at it, it does get easier.
x

I also used the Baby whisperer and found it really worked for us.

The thing I really liked about it was the bit (maybe on the website as I found that better than the book) that routines are there for the baby, not the baby for the routine. So it recommended that you spend the first couple of days observing (and noting) your baby's natural rhythms and then you build the routine around your baby's needs. So I did precisely that and soon found that we were very in tune with each other and I found it was a godsend in learning her 'language'. I also always put her down awake, so she fell asleep in her moses basket and I also did the cluster feeding of an evening. Despite being a small baby, by 6 weeks she slept 6 hours at night (12 - 6), at 7 weeks it was 7 hours and so on.... I then used to bring back the last feed earlier and earlier until I got a decent night out of it.

That said, I think the book is badly written but when I had my DDs (several years ago now) I found the information on the website far more informative.

Yes I agree with Letchlady at around 4 weeks I spent a few days writing down DD's every movement i.e
9.07 feed from left side
9.10 sick
9.11 feed from rightside
9.31 sleep
9.40 feed from left side

Anyway somehow once I looked back at it all I found she was actually on a 4 hour feeding schedule! with small snacks and comfort suckling in between. Writing it down could be worth a try to give you a starting point, and see if you could get a feeling of a routine out of that. Once I realised she was only having a big feed every four hours, it meant I could go out and about more confidently as I knew roughly when to give her a proper feed.

Agree with Smug, I had inadvertently got myself into a routine.

We made "suggestions" about sleep to DS so that he got the idea from early on (played a song at bedtime, had special pyjama clothes, went upstairs to sleep but "played" downstairs, whispered at nap time etc etc)... and then we flew him to a completely different timezone! He still got what we were trying to do and setting into a routine on that timeline, then changed to our timezone when we got back - that was 8 - 12 weeks.

5 weeks is the very worst of it for all of this and I haven't got the energy to fight a babies natural rhythm when you can't negotiate with them. I do know people do, and it does work for them, but it can be more exhausting and more restrictive to do.

My DS is only 7 weeks and he was exactly the same at about the same age as your LO, it has got better, partly on it's own, he seems to be a bit less confused about the world and upset at everything, but also because I did start a routine at around a month old and it has been brilliant. I know a routine so young is not for everyone, but I found we were really struggling and I had to try something. He used to do exactly the same thing as your LO; never sleeping, always grizzling and always eating. What I realised is that I was missing his cues for when he was tired, which should have been about 90 mins-2 hours after he woke up, then he got overtired, couldn't sleep and wanted to eat for comfort. The routine helped me know when he should go down for a sleep. I took stuff from the Baby Whisperer; recognising signs when he is tired, but I use the timings from Gina Ford (I'm not a fan but the timings of the feeds really do work). My advice is take what you need and what you fancy from these kind of routines and be flexible. I tried to get my DS to follow the sleep and awake times from Gina Ford, but it just wasn't right for him and we both ended up upset, so he sleeps when he wants to but I follow the basic outline of her advice.
I would say that the way I got my DS to break the habit of fighting sleep and being overtired and wanting to eat all the time was a morning of doing spaced soothing - basically a less harsh kind of CC. I still feel hideous about doing it and agree that 4/5 weeks is too young for this stuff, but (before I get completely flamed) PND meant I was desperate. And my god, it really worked and in only half a day things were better! We are all much happier, he sleeps well and isn't grumpy like before, and I actually enjoy my DS instead of feeling on edge and stressed all the time.
Good luck, I hope things will improve for you.

Mine both did really well on the gf routine but a more relaxed version..

Forgot to add, my DS is formula fed, so I can be sure how much he is eating each time. I know all the routines say they are ok for breastfed babies but I guess you have to use your own judgement/get your HV's advice as to whether they would be ok and wouldn't leave your LO hungry or affect your supply.

I'd say 5 weeks is too early to be worrying about routines. Have you tried a sling? Mine was happiest sleeping in the sling or pushchair in the early days. After a few months (like, four or five, maybe) the EASY routine started to make approximate sense so we did a bit of that. I worried and worried about routines and now wish I hadn't. A rhythm will emerge over time, even if it doesn't exactly match what the books say. Besides, you get into a routine, and they start teething/get a cold/are unsettled by travel/learn to roll over etc etc etc. Don't worry, you and DH will get more time together - you may just have to wait a while longer. Good luck!

Agree with a lot of the points here and ultimately think you have to find out what works for your baby. I had a routine for DC1 which he really needed (and we started at about 9 weeks out of desperation!) but DC2 is much more easy going so she doesn't really seem need one yet (she's 3mo).

One thing to bear in mind is that around the 4/5 weeks mark most babies go from being great sleepers where they do nice long stretches between feeds to waking up after 40mins or so, which is frustrating for you and your DS. I think the key here is to always try and resettle DS, rather than just assuming he wants to be awake. Try and 'shush' or pat him in the cot first or pick up for a quick cuddle and generally within 5 mins or so they've dropped off back to sleep.

Eventually as time passes they seem to figure out that they should be sleeping longer than 40 mins and you'll start to get the nice long blocks again.

Finally - do you have a bedtime routine in place? With both of mine pretty much from the get go we did a 5.30/6pm bath (before they started to get too tired), feed in a quiet room with the lights low, swaddle, burp and bed! Consequently both have always settled really well at night. Worth a shot, even if you don't pursue a daytime routine just yet.

Good luck!

Oh god yes, it was brilliant. I did the BW routine and it worked great for us. We came in-tuned to know when to feed and sleep for DD and me.

I don't have DS in a routine, but I have a few basic "rules" that keep us sane.

Never wake a sleeping baby - I fell into the trap of thinking if he napped too much during the day he wouldn't sleep at night. In fact the opposite seems to be true.

Naps every 2 hours. After 90 minutes of awake time I start winding him down for his next nap. Tiny babies need help for this, so I put him in his sling or took him for a stroll in the pram during the day.

After each nap I got in the pattern of nappy change, feed, play/singing/story, nap.

Your little one may simply be too young for routine - the above worked for me from about 10 weeks, but it took me about 10 weeks to figure out that my baby was overtired and needed help to nap.

I agree with smug: keep a diary of your baby's every movement for a few days and you'll probably begin to notice a pattern. But bear in mind that, at 5 weeks, that pattern will most definitely change! My baby is 10 weeks and she's nothing like she was a month ago. It's just too early. But it'll help you get your head around the baby's needs, even they change over time.

With my 5mo I just read the signs and he's kinda set his own routine, he stays only stays awake (if we're at gone chilling and not out and about) for max of 2 hrs. As soon as he starts rubbing his eyes etc he goes in his cot, and stays there until he maintains his grisling (sometimes hell make grisling like noises then go back to sleep)

I found that we played by ear when he was very little and it just kinda fell into place without enforcement, iyswim. Because of this, it also isn't imperative we stick to it, I find it's reasonably flexible ( apart from bed time)