My son is out of control at school and only 5. told he does NOT have ADHD or ASD, nothing we do is helping

[Mellissa3]

My son has erratic emotions but is out of control at school and at risk of being excluded, he is only 5. I am terribly worried for him. He is a challange at home but a million times worse at school. He doesnt complain about going to school he runs in every morning. I dont understand what is wrong with him. I took him to CAMHS for an assessment and was told he does not have any mental health issues. I was relieved but at the same time want answers. He is bright and does suprisingly well considering. He would be top of his class if he didnt attack teachers and kids verbally and pysically and did his work. It is having an impact on homelife. I dont want my 2 year old to copy him which he has picked up some bad things. the 6 week hol is unbearable but i cant put him in a holiday club because of his behaviour. I have a really bad feeling he is going to be excluded by christmas or in the new term. I dont know what would then happen. I cant home school him, it sounds bad but I like to keep him away from the other children as he is such a bad influence and ruins their day. If I am not in the room I can not trust him not to break something, or hurt his brother, he is very selfish and rarely shows any compassion, empathy or any care for other peoples feelings. any one else had to deal with something like this??

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What happens in a typical morning, for instance, from the time you get up until he runs into the school door. What's his behaviour like, what issues come up?

Has he always been like this, or just since he has started school?
Is he trying to impress some of the tougher boys?

I would strongly challenge that there is not a diagnosis for a child of 5 who is like this. Are you in contact with your local Parent partnership.
The school should not just "exclude" your son, but should be trying strategies to deal with his behaviour, and as a last resort be working towards a planned move to another setting where he can cope and his behaviour managed.
You could try someone like SENSOS to get more advice.
BTW at the least your son should be on the SEN register under Behavioural Emotional and Socal difficulties.

How did the CAMHS appointment come about, did the school educational psychologist refer or did you go via your GP?

What does your GP, health visitor and your community paediatrician think?

What does the school senco say?

What does the teacher and any classroom assistants think?

He will wake up in various moods, sometimes quiet will watch tv get ready and go to school with not much fuss. or he will wake up with a bad attitude, agumentitive, running around making silly loud horrible noises, has no control of himself, encouraging his brother to misbehave. generally he is ok in the car on the way to school, he will always give me hug kiss and run in to class. He always gets a good night sleep from 7pm till 7am.

At school he wont join in, gets possesive over things, never really seems happy,hurts people for no reason. losing complete control the teachers cant calm him down. he just gets in these horrible rages. He is always angey and seeks to hurt other people and will openly say thats what he is doing. he says he does not know why he hurts others.
sometimes you get a rare glimpse of a very sweet natured boy, but never lasts

I went to the GP and got refered to CAHMS

senco are not quite sure as they dont think its related to adhd or autism. they think it is a serious anger management problem, eratic emmotions .

the teachers are out of ideas with trying to address the issues and he is at risk of exclusion at the moment, and is on the emergency list with an outside behaviour expert, who is getting someone in 5 hrs a week to help .

I'd be inclined to go back to gp and ask for referral to a developmental paediatrician NOT cahms. Tell gp issues are getting worse and cahms were not use

Would the school do him a diary. Ds has one, it might say:
Carpet time: good
Activity: ok, didn't want to join in but then was fine
Playtime: Pushed another child
Read with teacher: good beautiful loud voice
etc. all through the day.

That way we can see that for him the main flash point is playtime/lunch time. He has hearing problems and that, according to ENT, is typical time when they struggle because of the noise.

Also he had 3 really good weeks then 2 days really bad behaviour. Took him to the doctor and he had double ear infection. He couldn't hear and was in pain. He doesn't tell me it hurts because firstly it happens so often I think he's sort of accepting his ears hurt and he hates antibiotics so doesn't want them.

If there are flash points then you may be able to remove them, eg is it just before lunch (hunger give him an extra snack etc.)

It is also good because he can see by number of happy/sad/okay faces whether he's been good. Also I can see and talk through what's gone wrong and what he should do. He now usually knows what to do, just he's got to get to the point of doing it.

OK I don't know much and I am not qualified in anything except my own two boys. What works for us are reward charts made for them specifically. ie DS1 likes stars and planets, so I make reward charts for him with a rocket and stars. He starts on the bottom 'star' and goes up 10 stars before getting to the moon, and when he gets to the moon he gets a reward (a magazine or small toy). It focuses his attention on good behaviour. It's all about small steps. Or 'membership clubs' - we have membership cards made of an A4 card, with their names in the middle and 10 squares around, and everytime they behave well at the table they get a sticker, and when all 10 squares are full they get a special treat (a cake for example).

What I have found is that focusing on achieving one good behaviour is better because the child will be able to figure out exactly what the boundaries are for one behaviour (ie. No hitting). If he doesn't hit anyone in the morning at school, he can get a sticker. Or two stickers if it's all day. Its much more difficult for a child to understand a general term like 'if you behave well you get a sticker' it's much easier for them to understand 'if you don't hit you get a sticker'. Does that make sense?

You have to put a strategy in place and stick to it basically. Maybe my tip is not enough if his behaviour is really bad, but it might help. And make a big deal out of it - the reward chart has to be customised to what he likes (cars, trains, or whatever he is into.)

I have always worried about his behaviour since about 18months. The school are putting in new targets and getting more help for him. they said they would refer him to a special needs specialist to try and get more help for him at school.

I attended the incredible years parenting course for childen with problems, but it did not help it actually highlighted other issues had not noticed at the time. he does not respond to praise at home or school

I thought he might have espergers by reading some trates.

they are going to try and have bubble time ( one on one talk with adult) in morning and after breaks to settle him in each session.

I think DeWe has some really good points re reviewing behaviour/ a behaviour diary and regular snacks.

My eldest has ASD and by the questionnaires we've done with CAMHs hes borderline ADHD. I'd had concerns from day 1 but he was flagged as very different at playgroup when 2.5, nursery in a school at 3, another private nursery at 4 and full time school at 4. The health visitor came out and did an assessment at home, it was a good half hour, she told me he was perfectly normal and healthy and it was just behaviour. He's now 8 and we have had a proper CAMHs assessment for ASD but at the end of the day just because we have a label we still have to deal with what we had to deal with at the start - behaviour. One of the psychologists best bits of advice to me was 'behaviour is behaviour it all needs to be dealt with'.

I find some foods make a difference. If he doesn't eat, which he doesn't if its noisy or he's distracted (like in a school lunch hall), his behaviour is significantly effected. Like wise if he is thirsty, which he doesn't appear to recognise, he gets really crotchety and frustrated. A can of coke on an empty stomach and hes bouncing off the walls - drunk with food its fine. We now have a lot of cooked breakfasts - porridge, pancakes, bacon, egg, sausages and mushrooms, beans on toast - this helps even things out for the morning. The school ensure he drinks milk and has fruit at break. The school ensure he eats a good amount of his lunch.

How does he manage time outs? For my ds they are a god send. He has a time out as soon as we start to see him loose it. Its not a naughty step for him, its a personal space to calm down before things go to far. He sort of recognises (now) that when we ask him to time out its because he needs it. Initially though it was really hard work with kicking, lashing out and lots of nasty things said by him.

You mention your younger one and concerns about copying behaviour. Exposure to other children and a variety of other childrens behaviours can help. Do you have a playgroup you can access at 2.5, to both give you some space and expose your lo to others?

I would really push for a referral to a developmental paediatrician. The school do not have anything like the experience to rule out ASD or ADHD. Its sounds as though CAMHS haven't helped much either, you need help and his behaviour is not improving. I would welcome the outside specialist coming into school but I would also push for the Paediatrician via your GP.
I would also start keeping a diary, so your remember all the things you notice, including the good times (and see if you can see any patterns).

Thanks a diary at home sounds like a good idea. yes I heard that advice too about all behaviour needs to be dealt with regardless. I am at the point of despair. we just have not found away of stopping or reducing these daily episodes of mayhem. I wish there were groups you could go meet up with other mums and kids that have behaviour / emotional issues , you can relate to and not worry about him having an episode .

Isn't there a programme on the TV 9pm tonight ITV my childs not perfect.

If right now you can't find the way forward working with him do you have the opportunity, or can you create it, to have some time feeling like an adult and person in your own right.

My 1st DH walked out when my boys were 3 and 1. The 3 year old was the one who had/ has behavioural issues and it put a considerable strain on my sanity. I'm remarried with a third child now but it was a long journey to find myself, take control of my life and then fight to get support for my son. With hindsight I regret not finding/ making/ insisting on time for myself. Then I would have had more energy for tackling issues.

Here is a great place to meet other mums/ parents and not have them glancing over your shoulder at the episode going on.

If you made a mental list of all the issues from the smallest to the largest is there one, maybe a small one to start with, that you could take the next week or three to work on? Maybe tackling things just a little at a time and you will make progress.

Sounds very like a little boy at the school where I am a governor (one of my areas of responsibility is SEN so I have very interesting conversations with the SENCo about issues) - he is very bright, well behaved at home but was for a while very angry in school - threw chairs around and classrooms had to be evacuated on occasions.
The school works very hard not to exclude and many techniques for positive behaviour were tried before he wrecked an office one day - then he was put on a parttime timetable. Over 16 weeks he went from attending school for a couple of hours back up to full time. He had a lot of 1-1 support and strategies in classroom so he could get up from his table and punch a bean bag if he felt angry - he had a chart where he could put pictures he'd drawn to show how he was feeling inside so the teacher or LSA could see if his mood was worsening. Gradually over time - with a lot of patience and praise he is now at school full time and doing really well.

Some parents made a fuss about the techniques the staff used - wanting to know why their well-behaved children didn't get the amount of adult attention he was getting but it meant (a) the children and staff were safe from attacks and (b) he stayed a member of the school community and improved.

Maybe there are some children who just find school very hard to cope with - I am assuming at 5 he's in year 1 which in some schools can be so very different to reception class and I guess some children don't understand why there are so many rules and routines. The little boy at my school had a big issue with getting answers wrong - he'd put his hand up and then have a melt down if he was told he wasn't quite right or if he wasn't chosen to answer.

So - the way forward could be to have a meeting with the school and discuss what strategies might help - there will probably be a behaviour management team at the local authority who sometimes have different strategies to try out. Exclusion should be an absolute last resort - it is unlikely to benefit a child of this age unless the parent feels they've been labelled as the "naughty child" in which case a managed move to another school can come as blessing and a new start.

Thanks for all your advice.
Reducing the time of the each day sounds like a good idea and then try and build it back up as behaviour gets better, if it does!
I am trying to get a Statement with special needs. not sue what it is and what happens with it ?

Melissa, try posting on the Children with SNs board, they can give you info on statements and such.